View Poll Results: How many tonalities per take is ideal?
- Voters
- 15. You may not vote on this poll
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0-1 / don't care
11 73.33% -
2-3
0 0% -
4-5
3 20.00% -
Yes / 6+
1 6.67%
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Such as diatonic, blues, dim, aug, melodic minor, pent, altered minor like phrygian or harmonic minor etc.
I'm thinking for jazz, you kind of have to use at least a handful of tonalities to make it more effective.
I've realized that if I slack, a take ends up with about 3. I want to shoot for 4-5. However, I think I am going to start using a practice device of just practicing using as many as possible that way I get used to it.
What say you?Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-17-2023 at 10:49 PM.
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01-17-2023 09:48 PM
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It's about quality, not quantity. For me, at least.
I just happened to stumble across Samara Joy's "Linger Awhile" disc on Amazon Music yesterday, and her take on "Misty" is soooo nice... I was listening to her beautiful tone, her phrasing, the emotions she puts into her delivery, the interesting things she was doing with the melody... and (for once) not analyzing what I was hearing, but just enjoying it. I got tired of this tune years ago and hearing her rendition of it got me interested in this tune again, and interested in trying to take a more emotional and evocative (voice-like, if you will) approach to playing ballads on guitar.
Not that I don't gape when I hear someone like Chick or Art Tatum throwing in the kitchen sink, but, again, it's the WAY they do it that gets my attention.
Avoid a formulaic approach. Do what you feel suits the song and your mood.
$0.02,
SJ
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What I feel suits the song is to use at least a few colors because that's what sounds good. Plus practicing systematically is how you get better. That doesn't mean you have to play formulaically.
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Out of the "colours" you mentioned, I use 5, but another colour not mentioned is "chromatic", which would make it 6....
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What a weird question. I play what the tune tells me to. Its music, not Yahtzee.
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^ Did you read the OP? Just playing diatonically to the key or 'diatonically' with respect to the most vanilla material for each change kind of sounds lame. While not knowing what one is doing sounds even worse. Pretty sure that's not weird to want to optimize the music using forethought somehow.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Forcing yourself to utilize the same idea in every phrase or key center helps to internalize a concept or sound as well as the mechanics to execute it at will, so that when you are performing you can forget mechanics and just play whatever inspires you.
One idea might take you through the entire piece. Or one idea could lead to another and another... it's not the number of ideas - it's having interesting ideas and exposing them in a musical way.
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Thanks for the suggestion. That's a really good practice exercise that I'm going to start doing. I've also realized that with good players, it's more they develop their ideas and see them through sequencing them and relating them to the next idea. Rather than the root motif being all epical in the 1st place.
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Three I guess, with chord and passing tones added as needed. I play blues so I want it to sound like blues, raw, not like some session or jazz guitarist with the night off trying to be clever. There are a lot of guys doing that now who are really great players and are reaching for new ideas but to me they just sound like non-blues players trying to play blues. On the other hand there are the minor pentatonic only guys, kind of like monotone improvisation.
Blues solo improvisation should rely on basic motifs being developed within a fairly narrow framework IMO. Kenny Burrell and the "Midnite Blue" album come to mind for a jazzier blues feel. Chris Cain and Kirk Fletcher for a straight blues vibe. Hopefully this makes sense.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
defining with eleven sections. I think you must be asking of
the type of scales, chords, extension/alterations, maybe the
mechanics of changes and passing chords? Looks like I am
misunderstanding because for even in the simplest of tunes
I would use at least a dozen "tonalities", maybe much more.
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^ I guess mostly thinking scales or arps for how to introduce chromaticism is what I mean by colors or tonalities.
Originally Posted by DawgBone
Here's a good track with standard bluez language. I think I like Kenny Burrell and Stanley Turrentine's solos the best. Jimmy plays it kind of conservatively but does build some tension and release.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-18-2023 at 03:43 AM.
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I try to make melody and express emotion. I don't often know which scales or other devices I'm using when soloing, even though I know that stuff for the practice room.
It wouldn't occur to me to think, well, I just played some melodic minor, now I'll use phrygian for the next chorus.
But, I don't sound much like a classic jazz player, so take this with a grain of salt.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 01-18-2023 at 05:20 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
session or jazz guitarist with the night off trying to be clever.
DawgBone
Apart from historical accuracy about which came first, there
might be some different musical perspectives, even clashes.
The Blues player may consider the Blues version normal, or
that he is simplifying the Jazz version. The Jazz player may
consider the Jazz version normal, or that he's sophisticating
the Blues version. For example, both Blues and Jazz like to
use side slipping but may have differing perspectives of how.
Here's an example using side slipping with Blues in key of G
So it is very common to side a #IV into the IV chord like this:
Blues version ("raw")
D#(9) -> D9
x65666 -> x54555
D# GC# FA# -> DF# CEA
Jazz version ("smooth")
D#(7#11) -> D9
xx5665 -> xx4555
GC# FA -> F# CEA
Takes a lot of experience to sneak successfully across the line.
It should never sound like a Jazz player is trying to "fix" blues,
or a Blues player attempting to straighten out the Jazz tunes.
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Agreed, good post. From the listening I've been doing, I've determined that I should focus on about 2 approaches for my style of playing. I'm not a full down home blues player but there is a lot of mostly blues jazz blues tunes in my idiom like the one I posted. So I try to focus on mostly blues jazz blues with a little bit of well chosen jazz devices thrown in that will add effectively and not take away from the intent; and then just full jazz blues or bebop blues with jazz language.
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Dunno.
I know what I practice. What comes out in solos is not my responsibility
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I don't use any colours. I play with my eyes closed. But if I dropped acid before... yeah. Game changer.
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When the guitar is not very well tuned or when I bend some notes or just play the saxophone I go farther, I play extra-European concepts without knowing it.
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My theory of jazz blues
Give it a go - let me know
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How many tonalities or colors do you try to utilize in a tune?
C'mon, Jimmy, depends on the tune, dunnit?
Give me a tune and I'll tell you (aprox).
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Tell me where jazz begins.
I know you will say "NEVER" !
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
1. coherent melodies, melodic phrases
2. some repetition
3. at least some sense of polyphonic movement
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While I'm waiting for my tune... :-)
Here's one of mine. Simple blues. The mood is produced solely by the blues scale notes, there are no outside sounds or other tricks. The only device I can hear is an emphasis on the 9 in the lower register on the tonic dominant (once). But it probably wasn't planned.
(edit)
It's also occurred to me that the clip has two distinct styles. The blues sounds and the nice pretty stuff somewhere in there. There weren't any deliberate alt sounds but the juxtaposition of the two contrasting styles introduced a lot of color. So that's another way.
Last edited by ragman1; 01-18-2023 at 10:33 AM.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Blues scale, major pentatonic, minor pentatonic. Plus some passing and chord tones which I can detail later. Notice I didn't post just "pentatonic" because there is a big difference in color between the two, obviously, and though the patterns may be the same functionally on a guitar they are very different from each other in sound and usage. Since the language of straight blues utilizes a lot of bends, hammers, pull offs on a guitar the scale pattern can make or break it's usefulness or force the player to change the fingering patterns or only utilize portions of it so it can be usable when mixed with some of the other scales.
What is side slipping?
Great thread so far.
I want to check out what Pauln and Christian Miller posted and add some additional thoughts but I'm short on time this morning and will get back to it later this afternoon or evening.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
Who plays only diatonically? It's jazz. But I certainly don't sit and say "I'm going to access some melodic minor colors now." I mean, if you're hearing a jazz line, there's probably already chromatics, enclosures, altered dom sounds (which you could likely trace to MM) etc...
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation