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I've discovered a methodical and accurate way to practice and visualize melody shape for solos. Combined with rhythmic vocab and phrasing, it results in musical melodies. It's a given that it must also be facilitated with musicianship, but the guesswork is greatly reduced, and the reliance on long term raw abstract absorption is reduced.
Scales, arps, intervals, chromatics.
When you think about it, those are the only possible shapes a melody can take anyway, so how would it not be effective? You always hear scales or scales and arps, but I've never heard of this combo before. I think it's pretty conclusive.
If you're mad at theory, please take it somewhere else. It's a given that theory must be facilitated with musicianship and won't yield musicality on its own.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-09-2023 at 09:04 PM.
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01-08-2023 04:42 AM
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In my experience translating melodies to the instrument is less of a challenge than being able to remember how the bloody music goes to begin with and being able to hear its intricacies in detail. Once that work is done, actually playing it usually takes care of itself.
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Might just be me though
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Fwiw lots of musicians relate what they hear mentally to the keyboard, even horn players
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I suspect this is one reason why Lennie Tristano put so much value on players singing solos and heads all the way through before playing. Not that I usually go that hardcore.
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Well scales, arpeggios and chromatics really are intervals aren't they. So yeah, intervals...
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Hmmm,
There are some other resources you can draw from, but the are often not in the "humable" melody category. Probably the most prevalent being the idiomatic nature of an instrument.
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^ Yeah idiomatic customs of the instrument are good, I try to work on those.
Originally Posted by Liarspoker
Originally Posted by Christian MillerLast edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-08-2023 at 03:08 PM.
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I think this is a good explanation about creating melodies.
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^ That's why I think intervals are extremely important. They emote a lot differently, expressively, accurately, than only using scales and arps and begin to develop a melody effectively. Notice he also goes over the rest of melody contour mentioning stepwise motion.
I'm just focusing on melody shape or note raw material. Also great his explanation of motif development and how to sing melodies.
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There are steps, skips, leaps and chromatics. I think by intervals you mean leaps (they are all intervals).
Ornamentations, inflections and dynamics are also a big part of melodic phrasing. For example Blues inflection is not easily captured with just thinking intervals:
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I'm focusing on only note raw material in this discussion. Yes there are other aspects to melody like I mentioned in the op. Rhythmic vocab, phrasing, inflection like you said. And yes, intervals are leaps, but you can also make ideas with only intervals or predominantly intervals. A leap implies only 1 interval within a stepwise melody.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-08-2023 at 05:57 PM.
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Word association football: you say 'intervals', and I think 'Boulez'. And so did someone else:
Raw.
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Abstract absorption - let's get it over with
intervals
..............scales
........................diatonic
..................................chromatic
........................nondiatonic
..................................arps
............................................tertiary (chord tone, alterations, extensions)
............................................nontertiary (diminished*, augmented, whole tone)
Of scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics
the prime constructive unit is the interval
by which arps, scales, and chromatic are
comprised. Chromatics (if strictly so) may
be diatonic scales, if "scales" proper is so
meant to mean diatonic scales. The arps
might also be seen as nondiatonic scales
of two types, "tertiary chord tone" scales
including their extensions and alterations,
and nontertiary - diminished, augmented,
and whole tone scales but played as arps.
*It makes sense to include the diminished
arps (scales) as tertiary, even though not.
Or change tertiary to the chord tones and
their extensions and alterations, if clearer.
Then, the diminished arp (scale) becomes
the non-chord tone, nondiatonic arpeggio.
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Jimmy are you talking about creating melody with reference to anything?... or just spontaneous melody. There might be an elephant in the room.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I'm not mad at theory, just disappointed.
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^ I know you're disappointed. That's why I'm sharing this extremely helpful tip with you. I'm talking about a process for theory to practice that gets you most of the way there to it being an actual melody. Those are the only possible ways for melody to shape itself. So if you use those as your exercises and practice combining them, your theory raw material that you practice becomes actual melody. So your theory framework and actual melody is the same. Not here are some unmusical scales, I'd better get into hard core creativity mode or have transcribed for 20 years to arbitrarily pick up how to make lines.
Originally Posted by Reg
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
then any melody you play, no matter how nice or lame, must
be also composed of these same building blocks. I don't see
how knowing this discovery changes anything; you make no
reference to how this concrete and accurate conception can
ensure the result of musical melodies. Under this conception
a non-musical melody would be made of the same stuff: how
is the non-musical melody identified and excluded by all this?
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^ Because in jazz you have to have practiced how to get chops under your belt which hit the changes and sequence motifs all in time. If you don't practice that, whatever your method, you won't sound good or effective. This way what you practice is actual jazz solo language.
Look at a Tal solo. That's how melody shapes itself to make authentic sounding lines. If you practice scales, arps, intervals, and chromatics individually and practice combining them, you're literally practicing jazz solo melody material. Rather than the process be arbitrary with unmusical theory on one hand and creativity and osmosis on the other hand.
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Man just let it go, we don’t need another 15 page theory vs ear circle jerk.
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I know. I literally contemplated if I should start a thread or not. Then thought yes I should because I discovered an extremely accurate way to take raw theory and make authentic jazz solo melody and it could help people. I guess not. Their instinct is to make neurotic posts and patronize me.
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 01-09-2023 at 05:17 PM.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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Maybe things would have been different if rather than offering a parts list of bolts, washers, wires, and lights you had presented the machine itself and explained or demonstrated how it works... but you're still just repeating "I discovered an extremely accurate way to..."
I'm actually interested in entertaining it; please give it another try with the idea of conveying it so that how it works might be understood.
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Jerry Bergonzi does interesting stuff just using simple shapes/sequences, e.g.
pitfalls of a vintage archtop
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