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This is a very good point. In this view, the arranger is leaving it up to the player to decide which "E chord diatonic to Cmaj" to play. (Note that we're now talking a half step up from the original example).
Originally Posted by KingKong
So, the player could pick Em7, or Em7b9, or E7sus, or tone clusters like E A B D. It would include E F A B E, which is nice, because that's the chord this arranger actually wanted.
I think that's a reasonable interpretation for what the Phrygian symbol should mean. But, in fact, most of the voicings that are "E chords diatonic to C" don't capture the sound of phrygian mode. Which, I think, is an argument against using Phrygian as a chord symbol -- because, what it seems to mean (E chords diatonic to C) isn't the sound that Phrygian implies you probably want.
If you ever played an open E chord in the first position and then slid it up one fret and left the open strings the same -- and you thought it sounded flamenco, you know the sound. You might have slid it to the third fret playing G/E. Still sounds flamenco.
My pianist friend pointed out that he might play almost exactly that chordal movement in response to seeing Phrygian as a chord symbol and, for Ebphryg he would be careful not to play a C.
So, once you know what the arranger wanted, and didn't want, in response to "Phrygian", it may make sense. But, if you come in without foreknowledge, it would be easy to go down the wrong path.
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12-20-2022 05:26 PM
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Thanks, but I've a question: Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Modes are note sequences, the sound of a mode comes from the particular note sequence that gives it is flavour. So how can a chord capture the sound of a mode, when it is notes played at the same time, hence losing the sequential nature that characterises a given mode?
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A mode is an unordered collection of pitches, not one with a particular sequence - only something like a twelve-tone row is ordered i.e. featuring a particular sequence of pitch classes. Originally Posted by KingKong
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I don't agree, maybe my point wasn't made well enough. Ok, so consider c major and d Dorian. Why do they sound different when they have the same notes? Cos the c major starts and finishes on the C, D Dorian on the D. It's the order of the notes that defines it and gives it its sound. Originally Posted by James W
(Edit) ok maybe a bit basic and confusing to talk about note 'sequences', but to me if something sounds like a given mode, it's because u hear certain things in the notes that suggest it. E.g. a harmonic minor note line IS the minor 3rd at the top of the scale, mixolidian IS the whole tone before the root. How can you play a chord that invokes a given mode by playing simultaneous notes? Am not being argumentative, just curious. Can anyone give me a chord that I can go off and play and go 'ah yes, that's the X mode'?
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Perhaps in music that is monophonic like plainchant melodies had to begin and end on the same pitch to define a particular mode. Not so with jazz, where mostly an harmonic backdrop will define a mode, removing the necessity of a melody to begin or end on the same pitch. Besides which, even in plainchant the sequence of tones except for the first and last is still basically unordered (the existence of tendency tones and post-hoc invention of cantus firmus 'rules' notwithstanding). Originally Posted by KingKong
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Yo, you posted b4 I added my edit to my post, have a read, what do u think? Originally Posted by James W
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F major sharp 11 = F Lydian. Originally Posted by KingKong
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You know a bit like ‘what exactly is a key?’ this is the sort of fundamental question I couldn’t answer simply. Luckily this has zero impact on any music making ….
Something is Dorian when it sounds like it’s Dorian.
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Originally Posted by James W
Just played, sounds horrible! But if you say that is lyidian sounding, who am I to argue.
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In case this isn't a joke, you might notice that it's the chord in Happy Birthday when you sing the person's name. Originally Posted by KingKong
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F major sharp eleven means Fmaj7#11 Originally Posted by KingKong
a #11 over bare FM triad is not so nice.
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The person's name is sung through the stock IV7 -> bVdim Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The IVmaj7#11 sounds good if the bVdim follows it quickly.
Otherwise, I am not understanding, or misinterpreting this.
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Yeah in Happy Birthday it’s a classic IV #IVo7 I/V thing that everyone seems to have a different name for lol (Nb bVo7 is poor spelling imo because the bass is acting as a leading tone.)
i think rpjazzguitar heard the #11 which is in the #IV chord but the tell tale is the b3 as well. So it’s a bluesy vibe which might explain why it’s so popular in jazz - harmonises two blue notes at once.
it’s closely related to Io7 (the cadential diminished I think it’s called when used in this context between a V and a I) and VII/I not to mention Vmaj7#5 ‘the bill Evans dominant’
in this specific context I am #11-5 which is a lower chromatic appoggiatura or whatever it’s called. See also Lester’s solo on Lester Leaps in for example… in this sense the chord is not so much a lydian harmony as a chromatic passing dissonance. However in big band charts this will be written out this way, and for jazz improvisers a dissonance today can be an extended chord tomorrow (Stella is a great example)
(The io7/IVo7 could be seen as a sort of double lower chromatic appoggiatura)
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Yes I noticed that a while back… Originally Posted by pauln
my theory is that the seventh provides a foundation for the #11 as it’s a perfect fifth. The stack of perfect fifths 3-7-#11 creates a stable sonority. This is why maj#11 sounds more dissonant and also why a the interval of a major seventh sounds so much more relaxed when there’s a major third in there.
nb Fifths are well tempered compared to thirds in equal temperament which maybe why extended harmony took off around the same time as widespread ET adoption (late 19th/early 20th century)
You can also extend up to the #15 by extending the stack on the third
3-5
which gives us the Warne Marsh two octave scale framework, stacking fifths on a major third all the way up
1-5-9-13
3-7-#11-#15
nooice
obviously a bare #15 is pretty dissonant. With this stacking (easier to do on piano) it sounds pretty blending.
(Anyone mentioning Collier at this point, it’s a bit different. I think colliers thing is a bit simplistic - I don’t think it describes minor chords well for example. But tbf I think it’s more a fun toy for him to play with than a serious attempt at academic music theory.)
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I've always heard it as a IV chord with a #11 in the melody.
So, if you play it in F, the chord is Bb and the melody is E, for a quarter note right on the first beat of that measure.
They blow out the candles and open the presents. Nobody complains that the chord doesn't sound good.
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The note with the dim chord usually harmonises the note after? So we have in C, F7#11 followed by F#o7 with the melody on A. IV7 works fine, but having a moving bass with the melody creates a pleasing contrary motion which is probably why most people play it (dunno about the original sheet music but it’s a common in move in 19th and early 20th century music, so I’d expect it). Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Restating IV7 is a bit weaker. But that’s kind of up to your bass player anyway haha. You might think you are playing IV7.. but the bass player will want that passing tone…
I would play C E7#5 F F#o7 C/G G7 C here. Sounds old school. Rising chromatic bass is nice against the descending melody
i mean as a gigging player you play Happy Birthday A LOT so it’s nice to have nice changes for it lol
Anyway, you see this type of situation a lot in standards, blues, rhythm tunes etc so it’s worth discussing. Happy Birthday is also the same type of form as Oh when the saints, Just a Closer Walk With Thee and many classic New Orleans style tunes
EDIT: this was all a bit beside rpjazzguitar’s point but I’ll leave it up anyway in case anyone can be arsed reading it lol.Last edited by Christian Miller; 12-23-2022 at 11:54 AM.
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Because of the way the elementary "stock chords" are played we might need three octaves and engage in some relativity of root conception. A lot of the stock chords have a sub-octave (comprising root and fifth acting like the missing bass) below the chord tone octave and extension octave... but sometimes a fingering's sus2 in the chord tone octave over a sub-octave is another's 9th over a chord tone octave without a sub where that chord tone octave resides where the other's sub-octave would be... even fingerings for the same chord, and even "rootless" chords have an implied particular root from which the tones and extensions are coherently named. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Actually the chord symbols names are all pretty reasonable when you understand what the original context is. Some of this stuff is a hold over from classical harmony, even figured bass. Originally Posted by pauln
From the perspective of colouristic chord scale harmony inverted cluster chords have become increasingly popular and the naming of the ‘9th’ for instance is increasingly abstract. Inversion itself is a slippery concept. even crunching through the inversions of the common or garden C major seventh chord reveals some sounds which really don’t sound anything like x 3 5 4 5 x. C/E doesn’t function like C/G, and so on.
As far as rootless chord voicings go - this is only an issue if you think there is such a thing as a chord root which exists in the same way as the intervals within the chord. These days I’m not so sure. I think it’s a theoretical abstraction that can help sometimes, and other times is an unhelpful distraction.
I think it’s easy to demonstrate this. The definition of the chord root in the chord D Ab C F for example for me is a matter of convenience and expediency.
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You are right I should not have written "particular root",
a large portion of rootless chords are "root ambiguous".
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Yeh I did the standard major triad with the sharp 11 as whoever it was suggested, put my teeth on edge, glad it's not just me! Originally Posted by pauln
I'll try with the major 7th next time I get to an instrument.
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Generally how one voices the notes has more impact than the note. With #11s just voice the 9th below which creates a maj 3rd.... very consonant sounding. Here's an example of a tune that I posted some time ago but uses lots of maj#11 chords.
The use of mode as the starting of a maj scale on each note is kind of guitar slang. Modal Music, at least with jazz and more modern music have fairly organized musical concepts. Which defines how we use note collections. How notes react and relate to other notes and which notes have control of the interactions.
I've posted a lot about the topic... but it's somewhat become common practice during the last 50+ years.
I mean maj/min Functional harmony and melodic concepts as well as Modal Functional harmony and melodic concepts... are different from each other. yea I know... who cares. I don't really either, but it's very useful when performing.
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Haven't read all this thread but just wanted to note, in Kriesberg's course he uses this as an A Phrygian modal voicing: A F Bb E A
(5x3355).
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I may have missed it in the flurry of replies, but the reason that modes with the same notes sound different is the drone or root or home tone of the mode. In any mode (unless a section is meant to be vague) it should be clear what the root note is. In a lot of musical styles, modal music has a drone that is this note. Originally Posted by KingKong
This is why, when someone is demonstrating different modes sharing the note set of the same major scale, the demo sucks:
"Here is C major or C Ionian: (plays) C D E F G A B C
and here is D Dorian D E F G A B C D
and here is E Phrygian ...."
The reason why this sucks is that our ears have latched onto C major and don't want to let go.
A better demo, with scales, would be droning on the open bass E string then playing:
E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E
then
E Aolian: E F# G A B C D E
then
E Dorian: E F# G A B C# D E
then
E Mixolydian: E F# G# A B C# D E
then
E Ionian: E F# G# A B C# D# E
then
E Lydian: E F# G# A# B C# D# E
Then same goes for chords. Play E Phrygian chords, then E Aolian, then E Dorian...
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Yes, you are essentially in agreement with me, the intervals leading up and down to the root is what makes a mode sound like a mode. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
Ok, I think I may have sussed this looking at those mode notes laid out in front of me..
Is it this:
'e Phrygian chord must have an F in it, as F is the only note not in any of the other modes'.
Then from this could u say that e aolian must have f# and c in it, as u can't have that combination in any of the other modes.....
Hmmm
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Some musicians... think of modes and modal music a little different... for example
With Jazz... what creates modal sound is the Characteristic Pitch and how the notes react to each other and what notes control the reactions.
And the characteristic pitch is one of the two notes of the tritone of the scale. If one takes the time to notate out the modes and watch how the tritone moves around and what the pitches are it might help see as well as understand the relationships.
Functionally there are two types of functioning chords tonic and dominant or... chords without the characteristic pitch and chords that contain the pitch. The chords with the pitch contain a tritone and are labeled as unstable or Dom. (usually resolve to chord without)
And the chords without the pitch are thought of as stable or Tonic.
The exception sometimes is Locrian because of the Characteristic pitch being a chord tone.
These are very basic beginning understandings of Modal characteristics... just the starting Point.
There are also systems where the CP becomes Tonic.... but most don't really cares. Nowadays most just use modal references.... means to create relationships with different functional chords that still have the same Tonal reference.
Prince was asking about I VI II V's and what are the spellings of possible actual chords.... well modal music organization and Modal Interchanges are very common practice musical tools that organize functional musical systems that help define those actual choices of chords, (voicings), etc... And help with expanding vanilla changes to other possibilities with musical organization within functional relationships to tonal references.
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