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Well if you WILL keep making us all look so bad…
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07-13-2023 01:42 PM
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Back on topic. I can map the A part of Satin Doll like this?
[Bb7 |Bb7 |C7 |C7 |
|Am7 |Abm7 |G7 |G7 |
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If I understand this, you're suggesting outlining Bb7 against G7 because it's a minor third up? And, then similarly for C7 over A7?
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Chord tones for Bb7 are Bb D F Ab. From the perspective of G7, that's #9, 5, b7 and b9. If you're thinking Bbmixo, you can add C Eb and G, or 11, b13 and R.
You'll need a strong line to make that work. And, for the last two bars, you have G7 played over I IV7 iii VI7 turnaround. In bar 7, you get an F against Cmaj7, a B against F7, an F against Em7 and a D against A7. It's jazz so it can all work, if the solo line is strong enough. I think it would take a pretty good player to make that sound great.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-13-2023 at 06:53 PM.
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Scale outlines are for soloing. The comper plays ii-V while the soloist plays V.
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That’s the thing people don’t get about this. It’s really about streamlining the thought process, not simplifying what you play.
If I think Bb F7 Bb F7 etc on a rhythm tune that is most certainly not what will be coming out of my guitar, because that will be the by now legendary Dominant Bebop Language (tm) which will include ii V’s, chromaticism, tritone subs and what have you. Likewise the comping instrument is at liberty to provide MOTION through the changes based on this template (providing it compliments the soloist)
This is the way fwiw that most accomplished straight ahead players seem to think even if they don’t use the same language as Barry did. Chunking ii V’s together is a basic element of this, it’s just that in Barry we book it down to a dominant scale (and subs.) I think Barry’s improv approach goes beyond licks’n’vocab however wherein lies its power.
If you are locked into an already detailed version of the changes such as you might find on some real book type lead sheets, it can be harder to find
Anyway, Satin Doll would be
G7 | % | A7 | %
D7 | Db7 | C | %
but if you actually played those changes you would sound rather boring.
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That's why I bumped the G7 and A7 up a tritone to Bb and C. But I agree it makes more sense to just do that when soloing like all the other tricks. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Is there any roadblock coming if I think Am instead of D7? Also G7 instead of C? Or is it best to stick with dominants and majors for this exercise?
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You bumped them up a minor third. A tritone is two minor thirds. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Unwittingly, Ive become a big fan of using the Barry Harris Chromatic scale. It's a truly fantastic idea in my opinion, I'm humbled by it's ingeniousness. Obviously, I use it with my modern legato technique on my modern guitar, but Barry Harris's Chromatic scale is available for everyone to use.
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none at all - that’s the important minor. So you could think as Am6-dim or A melodic minor Originally Posted by AllanAllen
but what I’ve given you is the most basic template
typically for this approach what you would do is spend a while (maybe even a year or two if you are super focussed) just working on things to play on a dominant chord - which you can apply on ii Vs and minor ii Vs as well. So you’ll spend time building up things to play on that - triads, chords and arps through the scale, thirds and other intervals, added note scales, pivots, seamless tritone subs and all sorts - and joining them together to make lines. You practice one punch a thousand times, so to speak, and learn everywhere you can get it in.
Get good at that and that’s something like 75%-80% if bop living in just that harmonic world, and there’s endless possibilities believe it or not. Anyway plenty of stuff on DVD I.
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Labels are hard for me to keep track of. What I meant to communicate was “in the OP example they did G7 over E7, and I copied that in the first 4 bars” Originally Posted by pcjazz
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A looper is an excellent tool for this. IRealPro or BIAB can also do it. That is, either can give you chordal background on repeat so that you can try your ideas.
You're actually better off, I should think, trying out these concepts and seeing which ones you like.
There's a very wide range of thought and taste about solo lines.
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I agree and iReal does help. I just want someplace to start since I only have 45 minutes or so to practice. It goes fast. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I can guarantee if you try that it'll sound like complete nonsense. Show me just one professional recording where that's done. Not the ii, not the diminished - the mixo like you said. Originally Posted by rintincop
If you insist I'll play it for you and show you what it sounds like!
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Just a brief hint. If you sub Db7 for G7 and play Db mixo you're playing Gb/F# major over G7. If you think that's good... don't :-)
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A line that runs a dominant into its tritone before resolving can sound terrific. Tritone into dominant not so much due to reduced tension. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Show me.
In 'All Of Me' there are two bars each of these dominants. Sub one of those other dominants over each one and play its mixo scale over the original dom chord. It's not even music, it's rubbish.
It's a fact. If you sincerely disagree, don't tell me, show me. Play the music. Prove how wonderful it is.
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I think the implication of an argument like this is that every note in a scale has equal weight. Originally Posted by ragman1
I am a total Barry Harris novice, but that’s not the case in his teaching (nor in that of most people).
If you make that Gb a big honking half note over G7, then you’d be right. If it’s an eighth note in a passing position, then no listener on the planet would say boo.
A G bebop scale has an F# and no one would claim that the scale is a crazy bag of nonsensical dissonance. That’s because the F# has a purpose in that scale. It’s a passing note between two really strong chord tones. It’s only weird when it’s used contrary to its purpose.
context is super important with any of this stuff. And yes, I’ll admit that you could apply that statement as critically to a chord-scale syllabus like the OP as you could apply it to your statement. I would just say that the OP probably assumes some of that broader context, by referencing some Barry Harris teaching it doesn’t go through explicitly.
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Show me. You play guitar so show me. Backing track required!
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who said anything about a mixo scale? I would use the dominant scale into its tritone, providing that the dominant resolves by cycle or half step. For example: Run the G7 down from G to C with one extra note (F#), surround the Db and continue down Db7 with one extra note, surround the G then F, E (3rd of C). Two bar phrase resolving to tonic. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Not me, bro. Read back. Originally Posted by pcjazz
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Don't say I don't practice what I preach. Here's two versions, exact same 'All Of Me' backing track.
First is with mixo scales as suggested by the OP (I had to fight my muscle memory to do that, it didn't come naturally). Second is using what I think are decent scales for the tune. It's possible various harmonic minors might have sounded better.
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Here's a more traditional one using harmonic minors. It's probably more like how it's supposed to sound.
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I did listen to it and while neither version is really to my taste I agree that the second one works somewhat better. And so?
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You haven't followed the thread properly. If you had, you'd know. The question is why the first one didn't work and the other two do. Originally Posted by pcjazz
(They're not really to my taste either but there you go :-))
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Oh man me too. It’s one of those things that seems (at first) kind of silly or maybe like a gimmick … but the more you fiddle around with it the more things you think of to use it for. Such a cool device. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Unwittingly, Ive become a big fan of using the Barry Harris Chromatic scale. It's a truly fantastic idea in my opinion, I'm humbled by it's ingeniousness. Obviously, I use it with my modern legato technique on my modern guitar, but Barry Harris's Chromatic scale is available for everyone to use.
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