Melodic minor uses

[jazznylon]

I've been working on this scale for a little while and I like how from the altered scale the first half is diminished and the second half whole tone

[pauln]

A fresh perspective on the same pitch set can be really helpful.

If you work at emphasising the different degrees within the master scale then it’s a different map. For instance In Barry harris we often talk about the third, fifth and seventh of the dominant scale and practice patterns and arpeggios from these places within the scale but absolutely never about the locrian, Dorian and lydian mode. Holdsworth thought in master scales but didn’t preference notes as the root.

one persons mode is another person’s inversion. It’s all just labels.

Usually scales are viewed like this... with the Subdominant below the Dominant, but the Submediant above the Mediant.

Leading Tone
Submediant
Dominant
Subdominant
Mediant
Supertonic
Tonic

If you think of the tonic as being the center of the scale, interesting things happen, including the clarification of the names of the scale degrees... "sub" and "super" are consistent, just rename the Leading Tone to "Subtonic". If you think of "tonal centers", why not actually think of the tonics as actually in the center? Besides, it increases the scale span to nine (the Dominant and Subdominant each have a pitch class ghost image on the other side of the Tonic)!


(+) .............................................Dominant (fifth up above tonic)
(+) .........................Mediant (third up, halfway between Tonic and Dominant)
(+) ........Supertonic (second up, halfway between Tonic and Mediant)
(0) Tonic unison
(-) ........Subtonic (second down, halfway between Tonic and Submediant)
(-) .........................Submediant (third down, halfway between Tonic and Subdominant)
(-) .............................................Subdominant (fifth below Tonic)

[ragman1]

Enough blah already. Somebody play a tune and demonstrate this wonderful knowledge that a dozen different posters have spelt out in their own way. Because, after all, the OP's original post was all about how it sounds. Am I right?

[wolflen]

Enough blah already. Somebody play a tune and demonstrate this wonderful knowledge that a dozen different posters have spelt out in their own way. Because, after all, the OP's original post was all about how it sounds. Am I right?

Quite right rag...please do us the honor..

[ragman1]

I could, but then no one else would bother :-)

[itsmyname]

minor melodic is like a "swiss knife" (something very usefull in many different situations, it's a french word) when I play jazz, sounds good in most of the situations, can alterate, can play modal, can embellish etc....can go minor or major etc..etc..;, but that's me !

[Christian Miller]

minor melodic is like a "swiss knife" (something very usefull in many different situations, it's a french word) when I play jazz, sounds good in most of the situations, can alterate, can play modal, can embellish etc....can go minor or major etc..etc..;, but that's me !

we say the same thing in English pretty much - Swiss Army knife

[dasein]

I've talked about this before, but I think of the "parent" scale of melodic minor not as the actual melodic minor scale (and its corresponding min/maj7) chord, but as the lydian b7 scale (and its corresponding dom7#11).

It fits my mental model, that an altered dominant is, in another sense, a tritone sub. Additionally, I already have a ton of dominant 7th chord language, and this helps it carry over nicely, with a one note change.

Even when I'm playing, say, D melodic minor over Dm7, I don't actually know that I'm thinking of it as melodic minor. I'm thinking of it as "min7 with a leading tone."

I would never say that my way of thinking is the correct way. And really, it's all the same in the end, same destination with a different starting point.

[ragman1]

I don't actually know that I'm thinking of it as melodic minor.

That's just it. Personally, I minorise a lot. Every minor I play is, or can be, a melodic minor except when it subs for a M7. But I don't necessarily hit the #7 so it can sound like I'm just playing dorian. Which, technically, I'm not.

I still want to push using it on real tunes, not exercises, because that proves, or doesn't, that it works.

[rpjazzguitar]

If I'm forced to think:

Fm6 or Fminmaj7. I'm likely to think "Fmin". Maybe F melodic minor.

Gsusb9. I might think key of Eb major or Fmelmin. Or Gsus and add the b9. G Ab C D E F . Six notes. Sometimes 6 is good.

Abmaj7#5. I think key of Ab, but sharp the 5. Ab Bb C E F G. I left out Db. I don't know what I think about it. I might think C/Ab and play in Cmaj with an Ab -- it wouldn't occur to me during a solo, but it's C harmonic major.

Bb7#11. "I think Bb7 scale" and sharp the 11. Bb C D E F G Ab. Looks a lot like Fmelmin.

C7b13. I think C7 with the b13. C D E F G Ab Bb. You could leave out the F and have 6 nice.

Dm7b5. I might think "mel min a b3 up" or Dm7 and flat the 5. D E F G Ab C. I left out the Bb, I don't know what I think about that. Probably I'd prefer it to Bnat because Dm7b5 is a rootless Bb9. You could leave out the G.

Ealt. I think E7 with all the fixin's or melmin a half step up, or Fminadd9.

But, all that said, per Levine they're all the same chord and whatever you do on one of them will work for the others.

[pauln]

I still want to push using it on real tunes, not exercises, because that proves, or doesn't, that it works.

I'm with dasien on this; I make Melodic Minor sounds by applying Lydian Dominant because to me it is easier and very natural to hear how to do it and to hear what it is doing, which is the whole thing when playing real tunes.

The simplest way to hear it is application to the tri-tone sub of the five in a two five - the simplicity is that the tonic of the Lydian Dominant there is the same as the root of the tri-tone sub chord, and LD's focus has forward motion to the one chord because you are "flat-two close".

[Alter]

Out of the seven modes of the Melodic Minor scale, the first, fourth and seventh are more useful than the others, but all can be handy:

1st: Melodic minor over Min-maj7 and Min6 chords
2nd: Phrygian 13 (or dorian b9), perhaps the least usefull one
3rd: Lydian #5, played over maj7#5 chords.
4th: Lydian b7 (or Mixolydian #11), played over most non-secondary dominant 7 chords
5th: Mixolydian b13, another sound over dom7 chords
6th: Locrian 9, another sound over min7b5 chords
7th: altered scale, over altered dominant chords

[rpjazzguitar]

Out of the seven modes of the Melodic Minor scale, the first, fourth and seventh are more useful than the others, but all can be handy:

1st: Melodic minor over Min-maj7 and Min6 chords
2nd: Phrygian 13 (or dorian b9), perhaps the least usefull one
3rd: Lydian #5, played over maj7#5 chords.
4th: Lydian b7 (or Mixolydian #11), played over most non-secondary dominant 7 chords
5th: Mixolydian b13, another sound over dom7 chords
6th: Locrian 9, another sound over min7b5 chords
7th: altered scale, over altered dominant chords

Excellent.

I also find the 6th mode useful. When I see a m7b5 chord, if I'm thinking mathematically, I may think "melodic minor a b3 higher". So, for example, Bm7b5 takes Dmelmin. I think this is more useful than thinking about locrian mode because it usually sounds a little better.

Now, a thread hijack:

2nd mode is useful for when the chart says something like Eb phrygian. In fact, all the modes are. I've been seeing this more lately, for some reason.

Ex: Eb phrygian is Mark Levine's second mode of Db mel min (this is not simply a tertian build, but it uses the notes of the scale). It is also related to Bmajor. When comping, what do you play? Per Levine, all melodic minor chords are the same chord, so you can play anything generated by Db mel min. You might go for Eb7susb9 (Eb Ab Bb Db E) if you can figure out how to play it. Or you can simply play any voicing you know for Dbmelmin, Emaj7#5, Gb7#11 etc. Good ones include xx 14 13 11 11. And maybe x6665x.

[ragman1]

This is Stella By Starlight. All the chords except M7's are played with melodic minor.

[ragman1]

And, just for fun, here's Stella played without any melodic minors at all :-)

[wolflen]

And, just for fun, here's Stella played without any melodic minors at all :-)

rag...

thanks for these two versions SBS

you have a very melodic style..the theme is referred to in almost all your phrases .. very economical and precise

[princeplanet]

And, just for fun, here's Stella played without any melodic minors at all :-)

OK, so how much more do you like the MM version? How much difference do you expect other Jazz musicians to appreciate? How about average listeners (non musicians)?

[ragman1]

OK, so how much more do you like the MM version?

Is that question for me or for everybody? It should be everybody, shouldn't it?

If me alone, it's hard to say. Neither would win any prizes but each one has its own charm in its own way. Probably, my ear having become used to jazz sounds, I'd go for the MM.

How much difference do you expect other Jazz musicians to appreciate? How about average listeners (non musicians)?

God knows. I wasn't expecting anything. I have no idea.

But, as a matter of common sense, even a non-musician would probably pick up on slightly 'out' sounds. They might like them, they might not. Or they might prefer the more lyrical non-MM version. How would I, or anybody else, know that before it was announced?

[rintincop]

John Stowell likes to take standard and convert every chord to an appropriate melodic minor mode (Cmajor7 becomes CMajor #5, D-7 becomes D-7b5, G7 becomes G7sus b9, etc.... That was also an exercise when studying with Mark Levine. Every chord...

My favorite is to sequence all seven modes over a single pedal point in the bass, it makes feel all Herbie Hancockish.

[itsmyname]

John Stowell likes to take standard and convert every chord to an appropriate melodic minor mode (Cmajor7 becomes CMajor #5, D-7 becomes D-7b5, G7 becomes G7sus b9, etc.... That was also an exercise when studying with Mark Levine. Every chord...

My favorite is to sequence all seven modes over a single pedal point in the bass, it makes feel all Herbie Hancockish.

yes and yes !

[princeplanet]

Is that question for me or for everybody? It should be everybody, shouldn't it?

If me alone, it's hard to say. Neither would win any prizes but each one has its own charm in its own way. Probably, my ear having become used to jazz sounds, I'd go for the MM.



God knows. I wasn't expecting anything. I have no idea.

But, as a matter of common sense, even a non-musician would probably pick up on slightly 'out' sounds. They might like them, they might not. Or they might prefer the more lyrical non-MM version. How would I, or anybody else, know that before it was announced?

I was just asking because I'm curious how essential some of us feel MM usage to be. For some styles (say, anything before Post Bop), it doesn't really add much IMO. Where I see people suggesting that Bop players were using MM, I personally don't believe it. In those instances I just see pitch collections that can be analysed in a number of different ways. Obviously anything after the mid 60's virtually requires it, but most people on this forum like earlier styles, if you can believe a poll I ran a while back...

[ragman1]

I was just asking because I'm curious how essential some of us feel MM usage to be

Agreed, I've often thought the same myself. Apart from the odd altered sound (which don't always need to be played with MM) there's nothing in most tunes by known players that shouts MM. The emphasis is more on making the most of more diatonic runs.

The more modern guitar players use all kinds of weird stuff but it's not necessarily, or strictly, MM. I think tritones and triads have more to do with it. So it might be true that its greater use was in classical music, ascending only. I actually remember doing all that at school!

So that's why I was bellyaching so much about tunes. There are a hundred sites all about 'the MM and its uses' but almost no pointers to tunes that are built on its harmony. Which is actually not surprising.

The 'Jazz Advice' site usually uses clips from real players' solos to demonstrate its points but even their page on MM doesn't mention a single one, it just trots out the same old 'knowledge'.

https://www.jazzadvice.com/lessons/4...c-minor-scale/

[ragman1]

As we're on it, I can only think of one instance where I can use a solid descending MM scale without it sounding anything but entirely natural and that's over a ivm6 - like so (my example). It just fits perfectly.



One could say 'But that's a minor6 chord so obviously it will'. But play the MM over, say, the Am6 in Summertime and it's not so clever. Needs to be Dorian with maybe the very occasional G# thrown in.

Miles uses the C# in his So What solo but very, very sparingly because it sticks out like a sore thumb.

[Christian Miller]

I was just asking because I'm curious how essential some of us feel MM usage to be. For some styles (say, anything before Post Bop), it doesn't really add much IMO. Where I see people suggesting that Bop players were using MM, I personally don't believe it. In those instances I just see pitch collections that can be analysed in a number of different ways. Obviously anything after the mid 60's virtually requires it, but most people on this forum like earlier styles, if you can believe a poll I ran a while back...

well you can transcribe solos and spot things that look like melodic minor. Were they consciously using it? Dunno.

What I mostly hear is mixed minor usage, so A minor lines used on D7, that type of thing. Not as strict as just one scale.

of course melodic minor has been around for hundreds of years and it was common for composers such as Bach to use the ascending melodic minor form when descending over a dominant chord.

so, it’s murky. As a bopper I would say the most important thing to get grips with is the common or garden diatonic dominant scale (or ‘Mixolydian’)

[ragman1]

I've just said all that, genius!

Were they consciously using it?

Probably not. Using the #7 as a leading note is common but I wouldn't call that an overt use of the MM sound.