Request for a Barry Harris Pre-Quel on Music Theory

[Christian Miller]

... As was more recently Messiaen.

well Messiaen being a French organist was not unique in this respect. There’s an interesting bit about the Organ improv tradition in Bailey’s improvisation, you probably know it.

In fact, composers are often improvisers. Apparently Pierre Boulez used to improvise percussion with Maurice Jarre to accompany movies in his early days.

i really like John Mortensen’s way of putting it - ‘participate in the construction of music’. That to me, not improv is what classical performers don’t get to do. In my experience improv and composition flow into each other naturally. I actually think trying to build a conceptual wall between the two is fantastically unhelpful and leads to a lot of odd attitudes in both jazz and classical

but the division of labour between performers and composers is really unique to western classical music and relatively recent too if I understand the history right. It’s certainly alien to jazz.

[James W]

well Messiaen being a French organist was not unique in this respect. There’s an interesting bit about the Organ improv tradition in Bailey’s improvisation, you probably know it.

In fact, composers are often improvisers. Apparently Pierre Boulez used to improvise percussion with Maurice Jarre to accompany movies in his early days.

i really like John Mortensen’s way of putting it - ‘participate in the construction of music’. That to me, not improv is what classical performers don’t get to do. In my experience improv and composition flow into each other naturally. I actually think trying to build a conceptual wall between the two is fantastically unhelpful and leads to a lot of odd attitudes in both jazz and classical

but the division of labour between performers and composers is really unique to western classical music and relatively recent too if I understand the history right. It’s certainly alien to jazz.

Yes indeed - and well put. I agree with you on the points you make here. I do indeed know Derek Bailey's book - IIRC he could be quite withering about some kinds of music, and his interview with Steve Lacy has that kind of negative attitude towards hard-bop from a free improviser's perspective, which I didn't find too great, but it's a useful book nonetheless. I admire the work of contemporary composer Richard Barrett whose work often incorporates improvisation as well as very intricately notated music (he sees improv as another form of composition). Interesting that you mention Boulez because I also recall Boulez describing improv as like public onanism (I love a lot of his music despite such comments as these!)

Well, I just thought I'd chip in. I like reading these threads despite no longer playing jazz guitar. Thanks for your reply.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

The turn this thread took reminded me of a cartoon by German humorist, poet, illustrator, and painter Wilhelm Busch (1832–1908) picturing a pianist from the time when classical musicians would still improvise. (Use the arrow to the right to step through the whole story.)

Der Virtuos – Wikipedia

[Christian Miller]

Yes indeed - and well put. I agree with you on the points you make here. I do indeed know Derek Bailey's book - IIRC he could be quite withering about some kinds of music, and his interview with Steve Lacy has that kind of negative attitude towards hard-bop from a free improviser's perspective, which I didn't find too great, but it's a useful book nonetheless. I admire the work of contemporary composer Richard Barrett whose work often incorporates improvisation as well as very intricately notated music (he sees improv as another form of composition). Interesting that you mention Boulez because I also recall Boulez describing improv as like public onanism (I love a lot of his music despite such comments as these!)

Well, I just thought I'd chip in. I like reading these threads despite no longer playing jazz guitar. Thanks for your reply.

Haha yeah Derek is pretty dismissive about straightahead jazz. But it’s a great book.

Also Boulez said a lot of things lol

[rpjazzguitar]

Yes that one is very good, here it is again. If RP can’t get it from this, I don’t think there’s much more we can do to help.

Thanks for this. I'm through with all but the last 10 minutes. I was writing down all the things he suggests practicing and I had to run to the store for more pencils.

It's a seriously well done tutorial. Kudos to him as a teacher and player.

And, it makes everything so simple!

[Tal_175]

This video presents a good summary of Barry Harris's harmonic concepts:

Barry Harris line building concepts are covered very well in the youtube series mentioned in the second post.

If you already know basic functional diatonic harmony you got the prerequisites as far as theory goes. But most of the work is in the application of the concepts in musical situations. Although BH talked about some musical concepts differently than in music texts (eg "arpeggios"), once you get what the terms mean it's easy to co-exist in both worlds.

Although I posted this link, I have one criticism about the video. It seems to be very largely based on Alan Kingstone's Barry Harris Harmonic Method for guitar book. Yet, correct me if I'm wrong but I don't see the book credited anywhere.

[Christian Miller]

People also tend to focus on the harmonic method as well. In fact, I’d argue it’s the improv stuff which is probably the most immediately useful to players.

[rintincop]

Can we identify the composition by Chopin where he harmonizes a scale with alternating tonics and diminished chords (Dominant b9)?

By the way, what fascinates me about the Barry Harris teachings is his linear method for line improvisation which is what I found most important in his teachings. I use his sixth diminished scale harmonizations less so. His sixth diminished method is straightforward and very well known for many decades and what people mostly associate with Harris. I think of Harris having two main methods: 1. His harmonic methods 2. His linear methods

[Christian Miller]

Can we identify the composition by Chopin where he harmonizes a scale with alternating tonics and diminished chords (Dominant b9)?

Well I’m sure there is … maybe not 6th/dim though at least not on tonic. 6th chords are normally found on IV in CP harmony.

tbf I’m not a pianist!

I mean more to say the borrowing of the b6 into the major key does produce quite a 19th century tonality. On the guitar you can hear it a bit in the rep of that era.

By the way, what fascinates me about the Barry Harris teachings is his linear method for line improvisation which is what I found most important in his teachings. I use his sixth diminished scale harmonizations less so. His sixth diminished method is straightforward and very well known for many decades and what people mostly associate with Harris. I think of Harris having two main methods: 1. His harmonic methods 2. His linear methods

me too.

[grahambop]

This guy wrote a thesis on it, it contains some Chopin examples. I haven’t read it, so no idea whether it’s correct or not.

http://jazz-hitz.musikene.eus/index....ownload/70/42/

[Christian Miller]

This guy wrote a thesis on it, it contains some Chopin examples. I haven’t read it, so no idea whether it’s correct or not.

http://jazz-hitz.musikene.eus/index....ownload/70/42/

NOOOICE doooown the irrelevant rabbit hole I go…….. Woooooo

[dasein]

Can we identify the composition by Chopin where he harmonizes a scale with alternating tonics and diminished chords (Dominant b9)?

Check out the Op. 25 Etudes, No. 12 in C minor