Request for a Barry Harris Pre-Quel on Music Theory

[Christian Miller]

Barry taught three classes

1 harmony
2 improvisation
3. Vocal

harmony was all the eight note scale, drop 2 etc stuff. Piano and guitar stuff.

improvisation is the single note soloing. Horn stuff (but interesting to guitar and piano obv). Added note scale rules, line construction etc

vocal is what it says obv

this organisation is replicated in the DVD sets.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

To the OP, FWIW I found the seemingly contradictory explanations (there is no ii7 only a IV6, but also no ii only the V7) very confusing. Then I saw a pianist on YouTube talk about Barry”s right hand theory and left hand theory, and how he made them work together. […]

Who was that? A link is always helpful.

[…] I have no idea if Barry actually thought anything like that, but it helped me to understand. Alan”s book is all about the left hand. Christ Parks and others mostly about the right. Of course we’re guitarist and don’t think in those terms, but to understand Barry, at least as a novice to his system, it is useful to understand the distinction.

6-dim scale/movement/tritone’s minor/fifth on the six are all left hand concepts. Think in dominants/scale practice/pivots/etc are right hand concepts. One hand can be doing one while the other does the other with no conflict on the piano. Not so easy for guitarist.

From what I understood (IIRC from the workshop videos recorded by pianist Frans Elsen at the Royal Conservatory at The Hague) Barry regarding piano did not like the idea of a pianist always playing chords with the left hand and playing single-note lines with the right hand, he talked about the art of two-handed chording getting lost. So this analogy is misleading.

Chris Parks talks about single-note improv and chording (have you really taken a look at all the videos in his channel — meanwhile 137 videos including 124 educational ones — of which many have “comping” already in their title?), pianists Shan Verma and Isaak Raz talk about both as well. Tomasz Bialowolski’s three-part series and the Open Studio videos by Adam Manness regarding Barry Harris are almost exclusive about chording and comping.

EDIT: I forgot the Lincoln Center videos with Eli Yamin that talk exclusively about chording.

EDIT 2: I forgot Thomas Echols whose emphasis is on chording as well, especially on the contrary motion stuff that he systematically worked out for guitar.

I think now I have named all YT channels that I consider relevant. There used to be one on vimeo by guitarist Rick Stone who died of cancer in 2016 but most of the videos seem to be taken down. (I downloaded those videos when they were still available. IIRC they were mostly about single-note improv.)

[Christian Miller]

Tbh we are entering the embarrassment of riches zone. That’s a lot of YouTube hours, to track everything the various Barry Harris related content creators put out is a bit much, provided you want to do any practice and not just be totally overwhelmed by info.

Luckily, for guitar the syllabus works out quite simply

harmony
get Alans book

improvisation
get Roni Ben Hur’s book

(if you must watch videos, Chris will reinforce this syllabus. Roni also has videos on my music masterclass.)

When you’ve got the basics down, get the DVD sets for the wider context and for how Barry taught it. Set I will see you good for a year or two at least.

Then, log off and practice your instrument.

Point is, the basic syllabus is FINITE. It won’t make you Pasquale Grasso, but it will equip you in the basics of bop, allow you to understand what’s going on on records and give you a grounding for more advanced study of this approach.

[Christian Miller]

One thing is that you need to have a thorough command of the fretboard before you can really do the improv classes for example. I learned through getting roasted in Barry’s classes but the DVD should give you an idea.
if you are like ‘this is crazy, too fast, I can’t keep up’ it means you need to do prep work before getting into this method.

(my experience is many would be jazz guitar students just don’t have this, and I simply can’t use Barry’s approach to start off with.)

That means practicing scales and the various patterns a lot until they are ingrained. The syllabus in Roni’s book should give you a idea of what to work on, it’s obviously similar to the one in DVD set I, but with the guitar in mind.

[NSJ]

+1 on Alan’s book. I just found my copy after many years of moving and I’m cutting to the chase and going to the appendix and making sure I have all the didactic fingerboard stuff down for all the drop forms. Obviously, the drop 2 and drop 3. Yes, of course. I forgot about drop 2 and 3. That’s the Barre Division for the guitar.

Don’t sleep on R.B. Hurr’s Chordability. That DVD is like 3 hours long! I was forced to get it when I was taking lessons. If my teacher recommended it, it has to be a good book. He wasn’t necessarily interested in for the B.H. System. He just felt like it was a great, systematic, step by step was of teaching chords. Starting with the 6th. Which note do we need to change to make a m6? A M7? Etc.

[NSJ]

Can I tell you how much I love Garcia ‘70’s (Thomas Echols ) terminology about the floor and elevator? It’s a great way to conceive of the concept of movement. And the goal, as he says, is to SUMMON any voicing one needs or wants at any time. That’s a tall order. A huge task. One I am setting for myself on 8 string guitar. With the added drop 2, drop 3, drop 2 and 4, drop 2 and 3 string sets. What a wonderful palette!

All useless if we don’t practice it.

But yeah, that’s basically what Pasquale does. Everyone thinks the incredible stuff he is able to to do on guitar, harmonically, on a polyphonic basis, must have been worked out or written out before hand. People like to him and automatically think, “No way he just improvised that”.

In fact, what was worked out that he has really mastered the “Floor” and “Elevator” stuff probably more completely than anyone else. He can, in fact, “summon” any voicing he needs at any time.

[David B]

Tbh we are entering the embarrassment of riches zone. That’s a lot of YouTube hours, to track everything the various Barry Harris related content creators put out is a bit much, provided you want to do any practice and not just be totally overwhelmed by info.

Luckily, for guitar the syllabus works out quite simply

harmony
get Alans book

improvisation
get Roni Ben Hur’s book

(if you must watch videos, Chris will reinforce this syllabus. Roni also has videos on my music masterclass.)

When you’ve got the basics down, get the DVD sets for the wider context and for how Barry taught it. Set I will see you good for a year or two at least.

Then, log off and practice your instrument.

Point is, the basic syllabus is FINITE. It won’t make you Pasquale Grasso, but it will equip you in the basics of bop, allow you to understand what’s going on on records and give you a grounding for more advanced study of this approach.

This. This. This.

The trio of Alan's book, Roni's 'Talk Jazz Guitar' book and his DVD 'Chordability' are all anyone needs to get the fundamentals together.

The rest is noise.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

This. This. This.

The trio of Alan's book, Roni's 'Talk Jazz Guitar' book and his DVD 'Chordability' are all anyone needs to get the fundamentals together.

The rest is noise.

Can anybody explain to me the difference of Roni Ben-Hur’s “Talk Jazz Guitar” (79 p.; ca. 20 USD/EUR) and “Talk Jazz: BeBop Studies in all 12 Keys” (268 p.; ca. 35 USD/EUR)? Both seem to be for guitar but I cannot find a TOC for the latter.

[Joe Carlson]

Here is the TOC for the BeBop Studies in All 12 Keys:



The content is pretty much identical, it just has everything written out in all 12 keys, where Talk Jazz Guitar will just have 3 or so keys for each example and let you figure out the rest.

The result is one is 268 pages and the other is 79 pages.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Here is the TOC for the BeBop Studies in All 12 Keys:



The content is pretty much identical, it just has everything written out in all 12 keys, where Talk Jazz Guitar will just have 3 or so keys for each example and let you figure out the rest.

The result is one is 268 pages and the other is 79 pages.

Thank you very much.

[David B]

'Talk Jazz' is not instrument specific, whereas 'Talk Jazz Guitar' has guitar fingerings and chord diagrams.

[rpjazzguitar]

I'd watch a video which explains the most basic elements of BH's system in the simplest possible terms. So, Christian, have at it!

My usual experience is reading posts about it which challenge my reading comprehension and concentration. Then after what seems like a torturous path through a multiplicity of options, the conclusion is how much this theory simplifies things.

As a player who struggles to integrate one new sound at a time, theory which covers dozens, or hundreds, of options just seems overwhelming.

[NSJ]

I'd watch a video which explains the most basic elements of BH's system in the simplest possible terms. So, Christian, have at it!

My usual experience is reading posts about it which challenge my reading comprehension and concentration. Then after what seems like a torturous path through a multiplicity of options, the conclusion is how much this theory simplifies things.

As a player who struggles to integrate one new sound at a time, theory which covers dozens, or hundreds, of options just seems overwhelming.

I found you can’t be a beginner or novice and get into BH. That is to say, if you struggling to find where the notes and intervals are on the guitar, that should say what is needed to work on.

What I love about this is it is comprehensive, clear, self-contained world unto itself, that can cover everything in a small and compact way, even if the actual footprint is small, it is so logical that the spread and breath of the footprint can be quite large.

[Christian Miller]

I'd watch a video which explains the most basic elements of BH's system in the simplest possible terms. So, Christian, have at it!

My usual experience is reading posts about it which challenge my reading comprehension and concentration. Then after what seems like a torturous path through a multiplicity of options, the conclusion is how much this theory simplifies things.

As a player who struggles to integrate one new sound at a time, theory which covers dozens, or hundreds, of options just seems overwhelming.

Yeah, I know what you mean. I’ve been studying Barry’s stuff for fifteen years and that stuff gives me a headache lol

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

'Talk Jazz' is not instrument specific, whereas 'Talk Jazz Guitar' has guitar fingerings and chord diagrams.

No, there are three books. The two you are talking about and the one of which Joe Carlsen posted the ToC.

[pcjazz]

Can anybody explain to me the difference of Roni Ben-Hur’s “Talk Jazz Guitar” (79 p.; ca. 20 USD/EUR) and “Talk Jazz: BeBop Studies in all 12 Keys” (268 p.; ca. 35 USD/EUR)? Both seem to be for guitar but I cannot find a TOC for the latter.

Same book except one has everything in a single key and the other has all 12 keys with fingerings. Personally I didn’t like many of the fingerings and did not find the book particularly useful, having already begun classes with Howard Rees and Barry (when he would come to Toronto) and started on the first workbook.

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

Can anybody explain to me the difference of Roni Ben-Hur’s “Talk Jazz Guitar” (79 p.; ca. 20 USD/EUR) and “Talk Jazz: BeBop Studies in all 12 Keys” (268 p.; ca. 35 USD/EUR)? Both seem to be for guitar but I cannot find a TOC for the latter.

I just realized that Roni’s book title says “BeBop” with a CamelCase. That’s real 21st century hipness LOL.

[rpjazzguitar]

I just read most of the thread.

I've never studied BH's system.

But, I already knew that you could intersperse V7's among I's. And, that V7b9 could be moved in minor thirds. And you could do it with the tritone of the V7 as well.

And, that you can play I-type chords in multiple inversions with V7 types in between.

So, I'm very interested in how the BH system converts this into comping and soloing, in a way that, say, Warren Nunes' approach does not.

I confess that I can't grasp the advantages, although I'm intrigued because some very good players report being helped.

[NSJ]

I just read most of the thread.

I've never studied BH's system.

But, I already knew that you could intersperse V7's among I's. And, that V7b9 could be moved in minor thirds. And you could do it with the tritone of the V7 as well.

And, that you can play I-type chords in multiple inversions with V7 types in between.

So, I'm very interested in how the BH system converts this into comping and soloing, in a way that, say, Warren Nunes' approach does not.

I confess that I can't grasp the advantages, although I'm intrigued because some very good players report being helped.

Get Alan’s book on jazz guitar harmony using BH.

I have no idea who Warren Nunes is, guy from Allman Brothers and Phil Lesh and Friends?

The simplest way to understand it is to treat it as a case V7-I. Dominant to Tonic. Tension to release. Dissonance to consonance.
You can create the dissonance-tension in 3 different ways, each time treating the situation like a diminished chord.

1. the Dim chord on the M2 of the key. Which is the same as dim chord on the M7 of the key, the P4 of the Key, and b6 of the Key. A series of chords built on m3 and tritones that keep on cycling up minor 3s with the same notes. B°=D°=F°=Ab°.
2. Treat the V7 as a diminished chord and move it up a minor 3d, giving you a series of related chords. Key of C: G7-Bb7-Db7-E7. Each of these versions or related iterations of the V7 moved up a minor 3rd can serve as a V7 function, yielding different tensions (#5, b5, #9, b9, #11, 13, b13, etc).
3. Instead of playing the dim chords in #1 as diminished chords, play them as m6 chords moving up a minor 3rd. Bm6-Dm6-Fm6-Abm6. Each of these m6 chords played together or isolation can serve as a V7 function.

The reason it works is if you move any note of a dim chord down a half step, you get a dom7 chord. If you move any note of a dim chord up a half step, you get a m6 chord.

Thus, you get this kind of elegant, logical closed eco-system that has powerful, flexible real word applications .

[rpjazzguitar]

So, instead of Bdim7 (B D F G#) against G7, you're suggesting Bm6 (B D F# G#)? You specify an F# against a G7?

It can work, but I think there are better ways to get to it.

Warren Nunes has been discussed here multiple times. He taught a very simple system which covers some similar ground. Search function should turn it up. He also wrote quite a few method books.

[pcjazz]

So, instead of Bdim7 (B D F G#) against G7, you're suggesting Bm6 (B D F# G#)? You specify an F# against a G7?

No, you would comp Dm6 (6 on the 5th) against G7 or Abm6 (tritone's minor) against G7alt (or any G7 that resolves by half-step or around the cycle).

[rpjazzguitar]

No, you would comp Dm6 (6 on the 5th) against G7 or Abm6 (tritone's minor) against G7alt (or any G7 that resolves by half-step or around the cycle).

Is that what he wrote? If so, I missed it. I thought he said you could use Bdim or Bm6.

I think it's common knowledge among jazz players that Dm6 is a rootless G9 and that Abm6 is a rootless Db9 (tritone to G7). And, that the Galt scale contains the same notes as Abmelmin, for which all the chords are the same chord (per Mark Levine), including, of course, Abm6. For that matter, you can get that sound with Abmadd9. Ab B Eb Bb. From G7, b9, 3, #5 (or b13) and #9. Leaves out the #11, but you're free to add it back in.

[rpjazzguitar]

snip> You can take it further and substitute the scale for other chord types, thus widening its application, that’s a bit more complicated but Alan’s book covers this, as does the ‘Things I Learned from Barry Harris’ youtube channel.[/QUOTE]

Graham, I appreciate your usual clarity and practicality.

[grahambop]

Is that what he wrote? If so, I missed it. I thought he said you could use Bdim or Bm6.

I think it's common knowledge among jazz players that Dm6 is a rootless G9 and that Abm6 is a rootless Db9 (tritone to G7). And, that the Galt scale contains the same notes as Abmelmin, for which all the chords are the same chord (per Mark Levine), including, of course, Abm6. For that matter, you can get that sound with Abmadd9. Ab B Eb Bb. From G7, b9, 3, #5 (or b13) and #9. Leaves out the #11, but you're free to add it back in.

Possibly what Navdeep was getting at is that (as I understand it), BH thinks of the ‘family’ of 4 dominant chords all subbing for each other. So one way of getting to this (I guess) is by deriving those 4 min6 chords in the way Navdeep mentioned, and using them as dominants. However to my mind one of them (the Bm6) is a bit awkward because of that F#. So I probably would be less likely to use that one as a sub for G7. The Fm6 is better, though it has a 4th in it which might be awkward.

The other 2 (Dm6 and Abm6) are fine, as you mention.

I sometimes think some of this stuff works better on the piano for some reason, maybe just because they can move the harmony around faster and it sounds smoother or something, I don’t know. Always seems to sound good when Barry does it in those videos!

For the guitar, I tend to pick and choose which BH bits I like best, going by what my ears tell me.

[rpjazzguitar]

Possibly what Navdeep was getting at is that (as I understand it), BH thinks of the ‘family’ of 4 dominant chords all subbing for each other. So one way of getting to this (I guess) is by deriving those 4 min6 chords in the way Navdeep mentioned, and using them as dominants. However to my mind one of them (the Bm6) is a bit awkward because of that F#. So I probably would be less likely to use that one as a sub for G7. The Fm6 is better, though it has a 4th in it which might be awkward.

The other 2 (Dm6 and Abm6) are fine, as you mention.

I sometimes think some of this stuff works better on the piano for some reason, maybe just because they can move the harmony around faster and it sounds smoother or something, I don’t know. Always seems to sound good when Barry does it in those videos!

For the guitar, I tend to pick and choose which BH bits I like best, going by what my ears tell me.

It brings up a point that has bothered me before. The theory has a nice symmetry when it points to 4 voicings. But, only two of them actually sound good. So, the theory needs to be amended. I think, in the end, you might as well start with what sounds good and use theory later, if it will help you to remember or apply those sounds in other situations.

I encountered it in a discussion of modal interchange. Turns out, there are lots of interchanges predicted by the theory but a lot of them don't sound good. So, you have a choice, or so it seems. Learn them all and then weed out the bad ones, or only learn the good ones in the first place.

The usual argument, I think, is that the theory points to sounds that you might not have encountered otherwise. My response to that is that I wish I was at that point -- I'm still struggling to incorporate sounds I've heard before.

I apologize for the rant. I'm aware that nobody is saying their way is the only way.