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"In fact, who among us can't play Purple Haze?" rpjazzguitar
Hi, RP,
Ummmmm . . . me.
Marinero
P.S. I didn't run with that crowd in the 60's.
M
https://youtu.be/hajBdDM2qdg
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09-13-2022 04:36 PM
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Oh man, I missed this first time through ;-)
Originally Posted by Marinero
Anyway, rereading I think there’s more common ground than initially. Tbh a lot although not all - of these disagreements are rooted in differing definitions of common terms. I think rp hit the nail on the head.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-13-2022 at 05:39 PM.
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Whoops I accidentally edited my own post without realising it. Ah well, it still works.
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I am surprised an academic discipline clings to ideas more than a century old. Most faculties have moved on, at least to the 1960s. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Music edu is plagued with scientism. Originally Posted by Litterick
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Wats up everybody I'm back for the attack and I asked my teacher, Tony Monaco, about this question. Here are his answers to the points brought up in the thread.
1. He likes theory because he thinks it's important to know to use to be creative. He thinks you need both the listening/musical/aural competence and the theory structure. He said yes, the listening is some of the picture, but not all of it.
2. He says pretty much all his colleagues have some sort of theory base that they use to be creative off of. While some learned that base more aurally and some more theoretically.
3. He thinks people who know theory can be more creative because of their knowledge resources than people who don't. He referred to them as gut bucket players. He used the example of how Coltrane could be extremely creative because of his theory knowledge.
4. He thinks some of the concepts really have to be learned academically. He made the example of 2-5s of how Jobim liked to use sub 2-5s of backdoor or tritone. He said yeah I guess you could learn that by ear.. if you know what you're listening for.
5. He says everyone wants to be able to play more musically and artistically than just playing the theory.
For those who aren't familiar with Tony, he's one of the best if not the best living jazz organist. He didn't come up in the golden age, but that's good because he came up right after the golden age in the 70s and he's still with us. He was born in 1958.Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 09-16-2022 at 04:52 AM.
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Some people are always "in the zone". Whatever approach they are using atm.
Pure ear playing can be damn dry too. If not feeling it.Last edited by emanresu; 09-16-2022 at 04:23 AM.
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I must have missed a post - who is Tony? Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
The problem with these types of opinions is they represent one successful approach but often people generalise their own experience to everyone.
I find it more interesting to solicit a wide range of ideas and experiences on the subject from different musicians and it turns out there are differences but also commonalities.
Furthermore there’s selection bias among those who teach. We all want to feel students improve due to our direct intervention and our teaching methods. I’m definitely guilty if this. But in practice it’s hard to objectively verify this and we may be guilty of flattering myself. The thing we don’t like to think about is that it may always be possible that your teaching is actually holding the student back!
If I have a student who practices a lot and listens to the music, they are going to work out just fine playing wise whatever I do. The kid who gets into music school is not generally the one I have to do much teaching with. the role becomes more like mentorship.
I suspect a lot more learning (and teaching) goes on via intuitive channels than we think.
Of course, Learning does not always require teaching.
It’s very common in jazz education circles to bemoan the passing of the old apprenticeship system. What’s interesting is that the research done into traditional apprenticeship systems is how little pedagogy there is and how directly engaged in commercial activity it is from the outset (Lave and Wenger, Situated Learning). Hal Galper remarks upon the laconic nature of much jazz advice seems to accord with that.
And we all know Paul Desmond’s quote ‘jazz can’t be taught, but it can be learned.’ That’s a universal ime.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-16-2022 at 05:00 AM.
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My teacher, Tony Monaco. I'll edit my post to be more clear. Your automatic reaction is to try to discredit probably the best living jazz organist? It's not biased, he's worked with the greats since the 70s. I specifically asked him if most of his colleagues have a theory base and then they're creative on top of that. He said yes. Some get there more aurally some more theoretically.
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No I’m not trying to discredit anyone. Please try and read what I said carefully. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I agree with most of what he says, but not all,
but my disagreements are not based around pedagogical practice, but more around the wider picture of how people learn jazz. FWIW I imagine I teach a similar sort of way.
in any case one teacher, however brilliant is one person. There’s quite a lot of dissent out there. It’s good to talk to loads of people about this, if the bigger picture about how people learn and learned jazz is something that genuinely interests you.
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I do talk to a lot of people about it. Some people who play well are more creative about it, but they have some base structure that they've accumulated and some people who play well have a comprehensive theory base. I've never encountered someone who truly knows no theory who plays well.
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I have. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
although your definition of theory is quite inclusive so that’s probably the main disagreement tbh.
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I know. I read the thread. It's the exception, not the rule.
If the musician uses an intellectual structure besides just putting what they hear to their instrument then it's theory!
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Maybe it's better to practice guitar than beat foam about theory ...
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Sure. But I think that’s being quite black and white. Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
what is much more interesting to me as a teacher is what people have in common. Which is everyone learns aurally.
that’s the important bit. But I don’t think you dispute that.
Otoh pedagogy is big business. People make money selling books and courses and so on. So there’s a natural tendency towards more theory due to market pressure. When musical performance dominated the scene, people focussed on that.
the question is perhaps less ‘theory?’ than ‘how much theory?’ My impression that theory has kind of derailed the conversation about how to play jazz. There’s always some new system or idea that will fix your playing. That’s all fun but the bottom line is you musicality, which comes from the intuitive side not worrying about what note to play.
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My premise is that most musicians aren't going to achieve any musicality unless they have some sort of education, regardless of how it is achieved.
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"And we all know Paul Desmond’s quote ‘jazz can’t be taught, but it can be learned.’ That’s a universal ime.
Christian Miller
Hi, C,
Sorry for the detour . . . I couldn't pass this one up . . . but for the lion share of saxers in my generation(Boomer), Desmond was a lame duck. And, please . . . I don't want to get started on Brubeck since it's too close to breakfast.
Marinero
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I often see advertisements like this one on Facebook. The thing to do instead of learning theory is usually memorising a pattern, which unleash the power of the fretboard, or some such guff.
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A friend of mine retired from music production years ago. When looking for studio musicians, his rule was "no graduates from university of Miami jazz dept." While I thought he was a bit unbalanced in his thinking, his rationale was they all were victims of cookie cutter education and lacked originality.
I live in Tallahassee and my experience with the FSU jazz program students and faculty was not very positive. Maybe it's a generational thing but whenever I show up at a jazz jam and it's full of the university students, I rarely unpack my instrument. Since I am over three times the age of these people. Invariably, they look at me like I am a steaming pile of (I will say "old age" instead of the word I want to use.) They are all hard bop trained and arrogant as hell. Maybe it's a generational thing. ("Ah kids these days") but the lack of respect or regard for the old players, unless your name is Coltrane, Parker, or Montgomery, is very obvious. Even the professors who are present do all they can to exclude anybody but their own students.
OK. I will step off my soapbox and stop the rant.
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So looks guys, this is dumb. Unless the "ear player" calls the strings the fat one, the one under it and the skinny ones, they know theory. Unless they magically will triads/chords out of nothing every single time they play the guitar they use theory.
7 pages on a flawed thesis.
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If you sound bad, somebody is likely to suggest you learn more theory. I'm thinking of another jazz guitar forum where that happened regularly.
If you sound good, somebody will suggest you already know a goodly amount of theory, even if you have learned to play by ear, can't play any scales, arps or whatever "theory" encompasses.
The term "theory" turns out to be flexible past any reasonable breaking point.
For the conversation to be meaningful, we have to be specific about what bit of knowledge or skill we're trying to discuss.
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i do sometimes wonder at your judgement I must say :-) Originally Posted by Marinero
utterly unique player and yea this was a extraordinary era for saxers and Desmond stood out by not sounding like anyone else. Lot more to him than the Brubeck quartet too
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well the main thing is that theory is easy to teach. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
For educators it’s easy to assess at colleges and so on, an obvious educational value add. So it serves a social function quite distinct from what it did in earlier eras.
Putting people in touch with their natural musicianship is much more difficult to the point where some here would tell you its impossible. It isn’t - but it is hard, and teachers can be impatient. Forget singing Lester young solos… the sort of person who hears a note and sings a different one…. It can be easy to give up on such a person. But that’s such a cop out. Because after a while they do actually start singing the right notes. You just have to stick with it. The brain is a marvellous thing.
This is a little off topic ultimately I’m going to judge myself as a teacher by how much my weakest students improve because that’s where the work is.
The kid who studies with me and then goes to music college and comes back and roasts me silly is probably going to be just fine anyways and the thing I need to be careful is that I don’t actively mess them up in some way.
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Sure, which kind of proves my point;-) Originally Posted by kris
Maybe it's better to practice guitar than beat foam about theory ...
Otoh If you want to be a good teacher; it’s worth figuring out how people learn.
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=========================
Aptitude Test (Guitar) for Playing By Ear
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Music Appreciation:
Which ordinal album was the turning point for James Gang, Eagles, Radiohead?
Performance:
Which fretting finger has the toughest tip?
In most songs, your guitar solo is performed in which verse?
In a three piece band ("trio" in jazz lingo):
- The drummer shows up when?
- How much do you take home?
Classical:
The fast movement of a concerto or symphony is usually which one?
Beethoven's best Symphony?
Picardy is the worst sounding what?
Theory:
Major seventh, dominant seventh, minor seventh, and both diminished and half diminished form stacks of what interval?
A ditone is what major interval?
Major enharmonic equivalent of diminished fourth?
Series of augmented intervals produces the circle of what?
The interval between a major scales' tonic and mediant?
The major interval between the fourth and fifth harmonics?
What is the interval between the pair of nonharmonic tones called Cambiata?
Which seventh chord inversion is indicated by 4/2?
The alto clef places middle C on which line?
Scoring:
Less time to complete indicates higher aptitude for playing by ear.
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