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Originally Posted by Chris236
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09-13-2023 12:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Chris236
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Originally Posted by Chris236
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Chris236
Take If I Were a Bell.
| F - F7 | Bb - Bo | F (usually over C) etc …
To me that Bb is a IV chord whether the F7 is there or not. It’s there for two beats. It’s followed immediately by a chord pulling you to the original I chord.
Im not sure why it helps to call it a temporary I chord. I’m not sure why I would hear it as a I chord. I’m not sure how it would help if I did.
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The IV chord in the bridge (preceded by secondary dominants) also happens in minor tones. Summertime in A doesn't modulate to Dminor in the bridge.
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Originally Posted by Chris236
It’s very useful to describe some things as modulations in some situations.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Chris236
Because it's such a common songwriting device, the secondary dominant can be perceived as a passing chord to smooth-out the progression and not modulation, IMO. One can't make that statement without hearing the melody. If there is modulation, that would be in the melody.
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And all of this bickering helps you play a song how?
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
and yes, modulating to the key of the IVmaj7 chord is very common.
#11 is a fine note on both the IV and I chords but it under no circumstances means a modulation hasn’t occurred.
Good luck with this! I’m out!
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Originally Posted by Chris236
… why exactly do you get to dictate how I hear a chord in a certain tune.
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Oh hai! What have you crazy kids been up to?
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Originally Posted by Chris236
Who would notice are those who play and those who listen (including audiences of non musicians) who hear the key throughout the tune's progression, and hear melody and progression harmony against that key, and hear legitimate modulations as changes in key.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Chris236
Which is rather weird.
But I really am curious:
Take If I Were a Bell.
| F - F7 | Bb - Bo | F (usually over C) etc …
To me that Bb is a IV chord whether the F7 is there or not. It’s there for two beats. It’s followed immediately by a chord pulling you to the original I chord.
Im not sure why anyone would hear it that way, or at least I’m not sure why that would help—let alone why someone would insist on others hearing it that way.
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Originally Posted by pauln
This is basic harmony we’re talking about here folks. If you don’t understand, I suggest you check it out…ask yourself what you’re REALLY hearing after the cadence. You might be surprised from the sound of it.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
if you’d like me to analyze ‘If I Were A Bell’ for you, post a lead sheet that you like the changes on, and I’ll happily do so for you.
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Originally Posted by Chris236
You have an interesting definition of reductionist.
And that’s a pass from me on the lead sheet, but thanks for the offer.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
You mean reducing all the changes in Just Friends to harmonies that solely revolve around the key of G? That’s reductionist.
All this is closely tied to how well you ‘hear’….bringing us back around to the thread title.
Another point of interest - after having taught literally thousands of people how to improvise, it’s interesting to me that (of the people who can hear) it’s about 50/50 between folks that, given a sole Cmaj7 chord, would hear Lydian vs Ionian…. When preceded by its relative V7 chord however, that locks in its sonic position in the key almost ALL the time however!
Good luck with your harmony!
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Man. Saying something is “in G” doesn’t mean every single chord in it is diatonic to the scale of G.
It means I “hear” the harmony moving to G all the time. Rather than, say, Sentimental Mood, wherein the bridge “sounds” distinct from the A sections.
Basic harmony courses often distinguish tonicization from modulation based on the length of the stretch of borrowed chords and the strength of the cadence establishing them. It’s not an accident that those are fuzzy, subjective standards.
Reductionist would be telling a person that the way they hear and interpret a piece of real life music is objectively incorrect.
Im glad you’ve taught a lot of students. You sound like you know a lot and they were probably lucky to study with you. But I’m not sure what’s up with applying that kind of rigid objective standard to the way someone should hear something.
I don’t hear it the way you’re describing. I hear it in the context of the wider tune. Tell me I’m wrong again. It doesn’t make it the case. I’ve spent a lot of time listening to a lot of tunes too, and the way I hear them is sure to change in the future. So maybe I’ll hear it the way you describe sometime later, and maybe I hear it that way sometimes now on some tunes, but the fact that it’ll change at all sort of gives lie to the way you’re talking about it right now.Last edited by pamosmusic; 09-13-2023 at 09:30 PM.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
My point as stated in the initial post is that, again, any major7 chord, preceded by its related V7 chord, sounds like the new 1 chord…. It’s a fundamental and if you listen closely, you don’t need anyone to tell you this(although you’ll definitely find it in Berklee harmony textbooks). The duration *can* be a factor in modulation but when it comes to V7 —> Imaj7, as soon as the cadence is discerned the key has changed….Giant Steps is a good example. Only takes a split second to discern the new key during the cadence.
Just Friends obfuscates it a bit because for the majority of the form Cmaj7 WOULD be the VI chord, but all it takes is the quick cadence at the bottom of each section to reorient your(MY) ears.
Why say any of this at all? Well, I was initially responding to a comment about what key JF’s was in and playing devils advocate to show it can be ambiguous at best when you’re referring to a tune that modulates at the top of the form. lol
As for my own students, I like people to come at ‘theory’ as organically as possible….but, as I mentioned in my first post in this thread, I believe having the right labels to put on things can be helpful in sorting out the manifold sounds - so, best case scenario, there is a balance of cerebral understanding with a lot of time spent improvising, until you start to feel/hear the fundamentals without ‘enforcing’ any harmonic principles on yourself during the act.
Ironically, and as opposed to a chord scale approach, I find that helping people get really proficient with triads then ‘filling in the blanks’ with what sounds ‘right’ using their ears often leads people to the “correct” chord scale in an organic way without the stress of having to worry about it in the moment. It takes lots practice but is much more in line with how Beboppers learned to play no doubt.
Anyway, good luck on your journey.
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Not really sounding very 'jazzy'. Is it in the...
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