Theory vs. playing by ear

[Boss Man Zwiebelsohn]

A few days ago I came across this fantastic interview that contains some very interesting info regarding the topics ear playing and theory:

Better Sax Podcast: Bob Mover's House of Harmony on Apple Podcasts

[Lionelsax]

A few days ago I came across this fantastic interview that contains some very interesting info regarding the topics ear playing and theory:

Better Sax Podcast: Bob Mover's House of Harmony on Apple Podcasts

Yesterday (believe me or not) I was giving a sax lesson and the guy forgot his scores. I said it didn't matter, I checked a standard, I taught him how to play the tune without looking too much the score, a score usually intimidates when you don't read very well.
He learnt how to play it even if he can't really read, fingerings don't come naturally, he's got no musical education but he likes music. I made him sing and play, he did it well, I barely do it and I told him to do it and he did it right, well... right... for from he's coming it was good, he took his first lesson in April or May, he comes twice per month, a little bit less than before because I am expensive, if it were me it would be probably free but my wife put her conditions. She's great.

I can say that he can play, it comes well, he is very happy and motivated.

That was about the very first part of the interview.

Now I think he won't be so intimidated with the score.

[Lionelsax]

i tell you what will - listening.

If you are too tied it won't be good, if you are open it will be something interesting or surprising.
Everyone talk about tritonic substitutions without figuring out than playing G13 instead of G7alt forms part of a tritonic substitution (a very bad effect on a minor 2 5 1) Db13 would sound better...
I didn't pick the right example.

The right one... Everyone wants to play a diminished scale on 7b9 chords, it's the only scale that sounds neutral on a major 2 5 1 and often bad on a minor 2 5 1...
These scales sound really really good when it's not a 7b9...
It's just a colour not a kind of jail.
It depends where you want to go.

Some think of bitonality, a parallel tonality above the original one.

D- G7 C played like D- B7+ Emin harmonic

It can be a lot of things, going to another direction.

You can't play things like a computer, when a computer has got a problem it crashes, when it's about a human who reacts, the problem becomes a solution.

[Christian Miller]

If you are too tied it won't be good, if you are open it will be something interesting or surprising.
Everyone talk about tritonic substitutions without figuring out than playing G13 instead of G7alt forms part of a tritonic substitution (a very bad effect on a minor 2 5 1) Db13 would sound better...
I didn't pick the right example.

The right one... Everyone wants to play a diminished scale on 7b9 chords, it's the only scale that sounds neutral on a major 2 5 1 and often bad on a minor 2 5 1...
These scales sound really really good when it's not a 7b9...
It's just a colour not a kind of jail.
It depends where you want to go.

Some think of bitonality, a parallel tonality above the original one.

D- G7 C played like D- B7+ Emin harmonic

It can be a lot of things, going to another direction.

You can't play things like a computer, when a computer has got a problem it crashes, when it's about a human who reacts, the problem becomes a solution.

OK don't listen to musicians and learn from them. Meh.

[Lionelsax]

OK don't listen to musicians and learn from them. Meh.

I'm sorry if you don't understand when I try to write something in your native language.

[Christian Miller]

Or do. Up to you.

[Tal_175]

I wish we had on the forum one of those actual no-theory jazz players. Let me qualify this, when I say no-theory, I mean "I have no clue what G13 is, or I wouldn't know a major scale if one hit me in the head" kind of no-theory, not the kind "I can write a graduate level theory book, but I never benefit from it as a player". And when I say jazz player, I mean someone who can at the very least outline chords and connect them in their solos over standards and can comp (not just play rhythm).

I'm not saying that player doesn't exist. I'm just curious what their process of learning jazz improvisation and comping (with voicings and movements creating melodies on top) was.

[Lionelsax]

I wish we had on the forum one of those actual no-theory jazz players. Let me qualify this, when I say no-theory, I mean "I have no clue what G13 is, or I wouldn't know a major scale if one hit me in the head" kind of no-theory, not the kind "I can write a graduate level theory book, but I never benefit from it as a player". And when I say jazz player, I mean someone who can at the very least outline chords and connect them in their solos over standards and can comp (not just play rhythm).

I'm not saying that player doesn't exist. I'm just curious what their process of learning jazz improvisation and comping (with voicings and movements creating melodies on top) was.

I think there are some but they don't talk so much, if they talk someone will try to teach him or her how to play the guitar and all the things he or she has to learn in order to be a musician.
And then someone will add that he or she has a long way to go if he or she doesn't know what a G13 is.
Then others will fight each other how to spell a chord !
I can understand why they don't talk so much.

[John A.]

I wish we had on the forum one of those actual no-theory jazz players. Let me qualify this, when I say no-theory, I mean "I have no clue what G13 is, or I wouldn't know a major scale if one hit me in the head" kind of no-theory, not the kind "I can write a graduate level theory book, but I never benefit from it as a player". And when I say jazz player, I mean someone who can at the very least outline chords and connect them in their solos over standards and can comp (not just play rhythm).

I'm not saying that player doesn't exist. I'm just curious what their process of learning jazz improvisation and comping (with voicings and movements creating melodies on top) was.

For sure the first place I’d look for such a person is on an internet forum entitled “Theory"…

[Tal_175]

For sure the first place I’d look for such a person is on an internet forum entitled “Theory"…

Yes, I do get the predicament. But it would have been nice to get first hand insights from a legit ear jazz player in these discussions. All we get is second hand romanticised ideas of such players or anecdotes from internet that keep a lot of the context and details vague. Also, some musicians may be downplaying how much they actually know to counterbalance the theory-heavy approaches prevalent in the academia, books and the internet.

[SOLR]

13s are lovely jazz chords actually...this one à la Ted Turner or this which I tend to use a lot :
Denis Chang (doing the interview, he can read and teach ) hangs around Bireli and plays with him a lot, that's good enough for me....

S

[John A.]

Yes, I do get the predicament. But it would have been nice to get first hand insights from a legit ear jazz player in these discussions. All we get is second hand romanticised ideas of such players or anecdotes from internet that keep a lot of the context and details vague. Also, some musicians may be downplaying how much they actually know to counterbalance the theory-heavy approaches prevalent in the academia, books and the internet.

I honestly don't know a single person who plays jazz with any degree of facility who doesn't have at least a little formal theory background. Not necessarily a lot, and some people are way more into it than others, but I think nowadays the only place where people learn jazz entirely in an oral tradition without reference to common harmony terminology is within the Gypsy jazz world. By that, I mean the real thing, the caravans and camps in Europe that are not very open to outsiders, not the world of non-Gypsies who emulate the Django style.

The one person I'm aware of who came from outside that scene, was let in, and then became part of the broader jazz world is Cyrille Aimee. From interviews, I get the sense that she learned almost entirely by listening, doesn't read music, and doesn't really know harmony terminology (or at least didn't for much of her musical life; she may have picked up some eventually). Note, I'm not saying "doesn't know theory" about her (or anyone) because I think everyone who can play this music has something systematic going on. Some people's systems may be personal and idiosyncratic, and some people's may be straight outa Berklee, but everybody thinks about and organizes what they know in some fashion.

[mr. beaumont]

I think everyone who can play this music has something systematic going on. Some people's systems may be personal and idiosyncratic, and some people's may be straight outa Berklee, but everybody thinks about and organizes what they know in some fashion.

That bears repeating.

[SOLR]

I honestly don't know a single person who plays jazz with any degree of facility who doesn't have at least a little formal theory background. Not necessarily a lot, and some people are way more into it than others, but I think nowadays the only place where people learn jazz entirely in an oral tradition without reference to common harmony terminology is within the Gypsy jazz world. By that, I mean the real thing, the caravans and camps in Europe that are not very open to outsiders, not the world of non-Gypsies who emulate the Django style.

The one person I'm aware of who came from outside that scene, was let in, and then became part of the broader jazz world is Cyrille Aimee. From interviews, I get the sense that she learned almost entirely by listening, doesn't read music, and doesn't really know harmony terminology (or at least didn't for much of her musical life; she may have picked up some eventually). Note, I'm not saying "doesn't know theory" about her (or anyone) because I think everyone who can play this music has something systematic going on. Some people's systems may be personal and idiosyncratic, and some people's may be straight outa Berklee, but everybody thinks about and organizes what they know in some fashion.

Reading () this reminded me that neither Joe Pass nor Wes M. read music and that led me to this informative Jens Larsen introduction

S

[Lionelsax]

I honestly don't know a single person who plays jazz with any degree of facility who doesn't have at least a little formal theory background. Not necessarily a lot, and some people are way more into it than others, but I think nowadays the only place where people learn jazz entirely in an oral tradition without reference to common harmony terminology is within the Gypsy jazz world. By that, I mean the real thing, the caravans and camps in Europe that are not very open to outsiders, not the world of non-Gypsies who emulate the Django style.

The one person I'm aware of who came from outside that scene, was let in, and then became part of the broader jazz world is Cyrille Aimee. From interviews, I get the sense that she learned almost entirely by listening, doesn't read music, and doesn't really know harmony terminology (or at least didn't for much of her musical life; she may have picked up some eventually). Note, I'm not saying "doesn't know theory" about her (or anyone) because I think everyone who can play this music has something systematic going on. Some people's systems may be personal and idiosyncratic, and some people's may be straight outa Berklee, but everybody thinks about and organizes what they know in some fashion.

I think I knew two people like this, one played standards like pop songs, played them easily saying they were all the same or kind of similar.
Another one, a peasant from "Lozère" played all Wes Montgomery tunes on a Steinberger guitar, he played exactly like him, same sound, all with the thumb, he came to a jam session, big hands, red face, a big smile.
He was great !

[lammie200]

That bears repeating.

Yeah. Unless your hands move completely unconsciously you are adapting some knowledge to what you play. The question is how much of that knowledge is organized in a way that makes music that fits the circumstance. You can get to understanding that organization in many ways. For me it was 5 years of piano lessons and decades of playing guitar afterward with a few guitar lessons, playing with others, and reading what people write on the subject. But I am the first to admit that explaining music theory is not my forte. My 2 cents.

[mr. beaumont]

Or, in less classy terms I heard a teacher tell a student:

"When you can play like Wes Montgomery then you ain't gotta read shit. But until then..."

[KingKong]

This idea of jazz musicians not knowing music theory is a load of romantic rubbish.

'yeh but what about Django, he was an ignorant gypsy?' etc etc.

Who knows what he knew but he knew music theory, you can hear it. He plays minor scales and outlines the changes. So he knew music theory. Maybe a 'minor 7th arpeggio' wasn't what he called it, but he still knew what one was.

You will see KingKong question the merits of sight reading and playing in all 12 keys and many other things, but one thing that he is a big fan of is music theory. A numbers based approach as opposed to note driven of course!

[rpjazzguitar]

I don't really understand what issue we're discussing here, but this comes to mind.

On Monday, I'm playing in my big band. They call a number -- I look in the guitar book and it's not there. No pianist. So, I then have to look in the piano book and I find it. 500+ tunes in each book, so I have to find the right folder. When I get it, the tape has broken. I find two pages, double check to make sure there aren't any more and put them on my stand.

I barely have time to pick up the guitar before the leader counts it off. I haven't even glanced over the chart. No time for that.

So, I get to the end of page two and realize that there should be more pages -- which were missing from the band book.

Aside: I learned that one of the first things to check when you pick a chart out of a book is whether the last page in your hand has the end of the tune. Don't ask me how I learned that.

Back to the story. Suddenly, I've gone from reading to playing by ear. Fortunately, the changes were not hard to hear and I got through it. Missed some hits that were unique within the coda, but didn't get any dirty looks.

And, that's my argument for being able to do both, as if such an argument was needed by anybody.

[Christian Miller]

Oh god not this again lol

[Tal_175]

And, that's my argument for being able to do both, as if such an argument was needed by anybody.

In my understanding this thread is not necessarily about being able to read music. In other words we are not assuming that theory = ability to read music/chart.

[John A.]

Reading () this reminded me that neither Joe Pass nor Wes M. read music and that led me to this informative Jens Larsen introduction

S

Joe Pass definitely read music very well. There are a bunch of interviews where he talks about how he learned from etude books and how his father would give him Piano scores to read and make him practice 7-8 hours a day. Later on and he was a very prolific session player in LA for years. There are varying accounts of how well Wes could read (some say he couldn't read at all, some say he could read a little but not sight read).

[KingKong]

In my understanding this thread is not necessarily about being able to read music. In other words we are not assuming that theory = ability to read music/chart.

The two things are mutually exclusive. You can know theory without being able to read music. You can read music without knowing music theory.

These situations that people describe where they have to read music. Yes I agree, if you did any of that and couldn't read music then you are fucked. Just avoid those situations.

[djg]

Or, in less classy terms I heard a teacher tell a student:

"When you can play like Wes Montgomery then you ain't gotta read shit. But until then..."

learning to read is a mechanical activity. it's like sport. it's even measurable.
theory is a crutch for us less talented peasants. a cat like bireli needs theory like a seeing person needs braille. talents like him show us our handicaps. that seems to be a tough nut to crack for many. but the paralympics can be fun as well.

[Christian Miller]

I did a video on my thoughts Fwiw