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I'm not sure if we are all talking about the same thing.
Theory and ears... personally and with many musicians I have and still do perform with...are the same thing and can be very useful during performance. I don't go and haven't been in a practice room, in 50 years. Practice rooms are playing live on stage or in some dive...(personally love the dives)
Again, personally they are the same, if I hear something or what might be implied when I hear something while performing...I use theory and ears to think... what or where can this music go. What musical relationships can be created and developed... while performing.
I can use playing or verbal cues... whatever works in that moment to cue rest of ensemble.
What's the difference between verbally explaining or physically playing an example of what or how to play something.... I don't know... the tools used to do the explaining?
Take an example.... contiguous II V's... say in GB's tune "My Latin Brother". There are lots of ways to play. What musical approach are you going to use to solo through. There are theoretical approaches which reflect a Context with a reference and there are simple use your ears approaches which can and do work. The better your skills, the better they work. I'm using example because I just played the tune and and was trying to verbally explain how I approached the changes later that night to another musician. He didn't really understand theory that much... so I eventually just played the possibilities with somewhat stop time examples. But I could have just as easily verbally explained. And the theoretical explanation would have opened the door to many more possibilities than the physical examples.
But both can work.
Here's a simple site for explanation of Contiguous II V's if the term isn't familiar.
https://www.thejazzpianosite.com/jaz...tiguous-ii-vs/
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09-18-2022 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Reg
Anyway, what you said. Verbal explanations are more for the teaching room. Professional musicians don’t talk much about theory in rehearsal and so on, at least that’s what I’ve found. The main media of communication are notation, singing and playing. Sometimes recordings.
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That's interesting.... I verbally talk on stage all the time... to the players as well as the audience.
I don't really ever have rehearsals, years ago doing R&B shows and working pits but not really playing jazz gigs, and I'm a professional musician... LOL. Different worlds which is cool.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Last edited by Bop Head; 09-18-2022 at 05:16 PM.
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Originally Posted by charlieparker
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Originally Posted by CliffR
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Yea... I'm old and somewhat still have that same feel about jazz players. Our social society was the dive or dark side society, LOL. Yea some got through with with access through $ connections ... I grew up playing after hour clubs as a kid, never put those hierarchical thoughts together and the 60's were some light etc... I like your posts thanks.
Jazz festivals which have some early example and yea... Newport in 54 and Monterey in 58... but the 70's seemed to be the beginning of the end for the old jazz thing. Which isn't bad, just different.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I'm going to try to think about additional specific sounds that way.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
(Remember I’m talking to the chord scale hoi polloi here)
’the gods are just and of our pleasant vices make instruments to plague us’
The strayhorn sound is of course the augmented triad used as an upper structure sort of thing. It has no particular chord scale allegiance at this stage that’s more a modern way of thinking. i don’t think it ‘comes from’ a scale. The reason being you have a similar structure in Chelsea Bridge and that has a minor scale melody.
Melodically he alters the key with a #5 to accommodate it, which suggests relative minor without further information.
Duke plays a whole tone run which sounds great of course. Very common choice over 7#11 and 7b5 chord throughout the 40s and 50sLast edited by Christian Miller; 09-18-2022 at 02:33 PM.
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
If you think D lydian dominant, you get D E F# G# A B C. I hear that A as an avoid note, at least in the octave somebody is playing the G#.
The D Whole Tone is D E F# G# A# C.
So, if you're avoiding the A natural in D lydian dominant, the only remaining difference is whether you play a A# or a B.
The A# is within the WT scale and works fine. Maybe best.
But, the B natural also sounds good to me.
So, to my way of thinking, it could be either one -- when I imagine the "A Train Sound", I can hear it either way.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Pedantic greetings from Oktoberfest City
(Haven’t been there for 20 years and was so happy it was canceled twice for the pandemic LOL)
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
And yes, Monk is the whole tone boss
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Litterick
That wasn’t the intention. I probably should have said ‘one’ rather than ‘you’ - the latter makes comments seem more personally directed than intended. Otoh the former is quite a formal usage that I wouldn’t normally use.
That said, it’s good advice. I personally wish I’d listened to this sort of advice a lot earlier.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
While I'm familiar with most of the terms, as an 'in-betweener' I'm gonna need a guitar in my hands to see/hear how that works. And that's how music theory is most useful to myself. I may or may not find some new sounds I want to mess around with.
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Originally Posted by ccroft
A good musician/player has the ears and feel to take a mode or something and make it sound good.
(a beginner on the other hand will take the exact same pitch set and sound, well, like a beginner.)
And one will learn the most about jazz specifically by learning those tunes, dukes whole tone licks, the arrangements and so on.
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I'm aware of the theory, but when I want the A Train sound I find, by ear, the Ab note against the D7 chord. For some reason, that sound stuck in my head easily. Some other sounds not so much.
If I were to practice the tune I could think, well, I'll try to make a whole tone sound there. So, I'd identify D E F# G# A# C as the pool of notes to work with. And, then, I'd try to make melody using those notes.
The challenge would be getting that sound internalized to the point where I could use it spontaneously without conscious thought (the use of which is like a train suddenly encountering a bad section of track).
I don't know where it fits into the theory vs aural understanding discussion, but, for me, aural understanding usually refers to one sound at a time. In contrast, when I read about theory, the number of sounds being alluded to in a few sentences may become difficult to calculate.
That is, one way we are discussing a certain sound for the second chord of A Train. I understand that you can get there with theory or just by ear. But, for me, it's simple enough to just focus on the sound to assimilate.
At the other extreme, the theory-based discussion may eventually end up with a recommendation to try every possible pair of triads to make hextonics and then playing each of the hexatonics against every possible bass note. (Seriously suggested on another forum).
In my journey, it has always been one sound at a time. I've occasionally employed theoretical notions to search for other sounds but the impact that has had on my playing is near zero. I am well aware that the approach has worked for lots of players, including great players. In fact, I think it works better for the players with bigger ears.
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Everything works better for the players with bigger ears. In 1972 we'd say 'That cat has Elephant Ears'.
(meant as a major compliment of course :-)
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Yea... whole tone and dim are like Bluesy sound and feel demolition tools. Great for effects. Take a listen to Ella and Duke performing Take the A Train.... Not that others aren't also great, just different. Might be cool example for Chord Pattern Thread.
But each to their own, if it works for you... great. I know it was a great tool for scoring films and commercials years ago... probable still is. Just personal choices... If that's what the chart or soloist wants... it's not like it's difficult to cover.
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Originally Posted by ccroft
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I wonder who of the people discussing here has a musical education?
I mean graduating from a music school - ending with an exam before the commission.
A nice blond and Mickey Rooney on drums
Today, 07:38 PM in Guitar, Amps & Gizmos