How to use harmonic minor

[Christian Miller]

I think you're probably right that in later years they became less common and they were swapped for m7's, and so on. I'd noticed that change myself in some versions.

Also, that those sort of changes do produce a boppier sound, if you like.



I'm not sure what that means.

I'm also not sure that the RB changes are comparable to Gypsy jazz changes, they're not quite the same style.

Well ... that's the point I was making? Style changes. The RB changes are not what the original composer wrote, they are by and large what Miles or whoever recorded.

They are comparable in the sense that you can pull up the chords for the gypsy jazz version of Body and Soul and compare it to what's in the Real Book, and go, oh they are different. I mean that's comparing right? It's the same song with different chords?

In fact there's quite a lot to learn from the comparison

Jobim, I read recently, only started writing his bossa numbers after years of playing standards in clubs. But he certainly had his roots in both Brazilian and Western classical music. To what extent this influenced the use of dim chords in later years I don't know.

The dom/M7 chord is not something I've seen notated in any chart I've used unless it's written as a slash chord, like B/C. I think it's pretty extreme although quite fun in the right places.

It's not super common but they do come up. Nicolette by Kenny Wheeler has them.

TBH I'd rather read dim(maj7) than a slash chord, but since I was told that pianists have to effectively read slash chords backwards (left hand takes the bass note right of the slash, right hand takes the chord left of the slash ARRRRGHHH) I won't complain too much.

So basically, as I said, I see your point. The dim sound is really a quite lyrical/romantic sound and probably the modern ear has moved on from that. On the hand, the older tunes haven't really gone out of fashion, they're still being played all over the world. I have a feeling we might be mixing, or trying to mix, two things that aren't really comparable. I don't think the dim sound has gone out of fashion so much as it's simply not applicable to more modern, perhaps harsher, musical trends.

Chords and chord progressions go in and out of fashion all the time. The songwriters 1960s didn't really care for the II-V-I, favouring V7sus and bVII.

[pingu]

I really love the old school diminished chords , they really point to the next place

however I can never be very convincing using the WholeHalf (or halfwhole) scale
on Dim chords

can anyone point me to a resource
of a few good lines using the scales
or put some on here ?

linear things or symmetrical things ,
don’t mind as long as they’re hip

cheers

[rpjazzguitar]

Well ... that's the point I was making? Style changes. The RB changes are not what the original composer wrote, they are by and large what Miles or whoever recorded.

They are comparable in the sense that you can pull up the chords for the gypsy jazz version of Body and Soul and compare it to what's in the Real Book, and go, oh they are different. I mean that's comparing right? It's the same song with different chords?

In fact there's quite a lot to learn from the comparison



It's not super common but they do come up. Nicolette by Kenny Wheeler has them.

TBH I'd rather read dim(maj7) than a slash chord, but since I was told that pianists have to effectively read slash chords backwards (left hand takes the bass note right of the slash, right hand takes the chord left of the slash ARRRRGHHH) I won't complain too much.



Chords and chord progressions go in and out of fashion all the time. The songwriters 1960s didn't really care for the II-V-I, favouring V7sus and bVII.

Dim with major 7 is common in Brazilian music. I've wondered if it's because it lays so well on guitar. For example, 2x121x is a common dim grip for F#dim7. That's F# D# A C.

If you flatten the index finger into a barre and fret the high E string at the first fret you get the major 7, F. Calling it a Dim(maj7) may sound unfamiliar, but the chord is an F7 with an F# in the bass. The inversion matters. 2x1211 gets the F nearly two octaves above the F# so it's heard as a maj7.

[Christian Miller]

Dim with major 7 is common in Brazilian music. I've wondered if it's because it lays so well on guitar. For example, 2x121x is a common dim grip for F#dim7. That's F# D# A C.

If you flatten the index finger into a barre and fret the high E string at the first fret you get the major 7, F. Calling it a Dim(maj7) may sound unfamiliar, but the chord is an F7 with an F# in the bass. The inversion matters. 2x1211 gets the F nearly two octaves above the F# so it's heard as a maj7.

And of course the first chord of Stella was originally an Ebo7 chord with an A in the melody… which inverts into the Bbo7(maj7)…

such chords were common as passing chords all up through the 20s and 30s… in charts they are usually written just as dim7…. Start doing any chord melodies and you are going to see a lot of 3 x 2 3 4 x

As seems often the way with music history the chord became more and more it’s own thing….

[Christian Miller]

I really love the old school diminished chords , they really point to the next place

however I can never be very convincing using the WholeHalf (or halfwhole) scale
on Dim chords

can anyone point me to a resource
of a few good lines using the scales
or put some on here ?

linear things or symmetrical things ,
don’t mind as long as they’re hip

cheers

Oh well I did some videos a while back but they never got much traction. Maybe some of this may be useful?

Whole half works great, but try starting on the half step when ascending… whole step when descending

[rpjazzguitar]

And of course the first chord of Stella was originally an Ebo7 chord with an A in the melody… which inverts into the Bbo7(maj7)…

such chords were common as passing chords all up through the 20s and 30s… in charts they are usually written just as dim7…. Start doing any chord melodies and you are going to see a lot of 3 x 2 3 4 x

As seems often the way with music history the chord became more and more it’s own thing….

Typo? Eb07 is Eb Gb A C. Bbo7(maj7) is Bb Db E G A.

The original of Stella was in Eb and began with Ebo7 (with a D in the melody). Including the D, it's aka Ebo7(maj7).

[Christian Miller]

Typo? Eb07 is Eb Gb A C. Bbo7(maj7) is Bb Db E G A.

The original of Stella was in Eb and began with Ebo7 (with a D in the melody). In that key, it inverts to Ebo7(maj7).

yeah it should be Eo7

[pingu]

thanks Mr Christian ,
I’ll give the vids a go ....

[Average Joe]

Has anyone mentioned the use of harmonic minor over diminished chords yet?

Especially good with bossa tunes. For example, take How Insensitive:

Dm - % - C#o - %

The C#o is a sub for A7b9 so you can use D harm over it. It's easy and sounds just right. And there are other places in the tune where it applies. And in other bossa tunes too.

Can I just say that this little aside was extremely helpful. Thanks. I'm just an amateur intermediary and I always thought of that C#dim as a C7b9. A7 makes a lot of sense.

Anyway, back to our regular programming...

[Christian Miller]

Barry used to insist on always naming the dim7 chord after the third of the related dominant - so C#dim7 on A7. The more I learn the more ends this makes (it also ties in with the scale outline thing - scale down to the third stuff.)

[ragman1]

naming the dim7 chord after the third of the related dominant

That's interesting, hadn't heard that before. Probably makes sense, too, if you want to deduce which dominant it implies. And from there which harmonic minor to use.

starts looking for loopholes... :-)

[rintincop]

Barry used to insist on always naming the dim7 chord after the third of the related dominant - so C#dim7 on A7. The more I learn the more ends this makes (it also ties in with the scale outline thing - scale down to the third stuff.)

Indeed. And on the C#dim7 chord play C7 down from it's 7th to C#, and that is again the same as Barry's "minor's five" scale outline. And C7 is the bop scale of the relative major, F Major, relative major of D minor and its A7 and E-7b5. It's the ideal melodic permutation, IMO.

[pingu]

Indeed. And on the C#dim7 chord play C7 down from it's 7th to C#, and that is again the same as Barry's "minor's five" scale outline. And C7 is the bop scale of the relative major, F Major, relative major of D minor and its A7 and E-7b5. It's the ideal melodic permutation, IMO.

i wish i understood this stuff ....

Is it
on C#dim7 play
Bb A G F E D C#
(= A7b9b13)

am i on track ?

[Christian Miller]

i wish i understood this stuff ....

Is it
on C#dim7 play
Bb A G F E D C#
(= A7b9b13)

am i on track ?

Perfect

it seems awkward at first but the point of it as I understand it is to use as much C7 as possible (you practice loads of dominant language) and then connect to the C#o7 and resolve to the next chord. Bebop in a can.

[Jonathan0996]

I like to use the harmonic minor scale a step down over a half-diminished chord:

Dm7b5 = C harmonic minor

[ragman1]

i wish i understood this stuff ....

Is it
on C#dim7 play
Bb A G F E D C#
(= A7b9b13)

am i on track ?

Yes, because the C#o is a sub for A7b9 so you use D harmonic minor over it... which are the notes you've written.

(C#o is also the 7th degree chord derived from the D harmonic minor scale so you're safe as houses)

[ragman1]

I like to use the harmonic minor scale a step down over a half-diminished chord:

Dm7b5 = C harmonic minor

Same answer as above. Dm7b5 is the 2nd degree chord in D harmonic minor so you're safe... BUT providing it fits the tune in context. Unfortunately some diminished chords do sound better in context with a diminished arpeggio or full scale (H/W or W/H).

[ragman1]

There are explanations online for diminished chords/scales but they can be quite confusing. We might have to do a really clear 'tutorial' thing on JGO to clear it up :-)

[kris]

It's best to use an ear that needs training all the time, it's that simple.
Not musical scales - "up and down".

[SOLR]

2 examples of HM ?

Kurt Rosenwinkel "C" HM bar 94 of this Fm7 excerpt, I find this riff more into the bebop style when played slowly, of course with Kurt's dexterity it just blows....

?? K rosenwinkel - YouTube

and J Kreisberg. "D" HM bar ....

?? J Kreisberg bar 41 HM - YouTube


S

[charlieparker]

This week's click bait!

This may come off sounding ignorant but how often does a i minor chord show up in the repertoire that Parker played. As far as I can tell he rarely played tunes that I would characterize as being in a minor key.

Somehow, it seems like a more prevalent sound in hard bop.

Or would you still use harmonic minor over a ii-V that resolves to a minor chord like in the 8th measure of the blues?

Or in other words, did Parker frequently play lines based on harmonic minor?

I know that is a limiting framework to think about things but I'm trying to focus my current studies around that vocabulary.

[djg]

This may come off sounding ignorant but how often does a i minor chord show up in the repertoire that Parker played. As far as I can tell he rarely played tunes that I would characterize as being in a minor key.

often enough to be relevant

Somehow, it seems like a more prevalent sound in hard bop.

it is

Or would you still use harmonic minor over a ii-V that resolves to a minor chord like in the 8th measure of the blues?

absolutely

Or in other words, did Parker frequently play lines based on harmonic minor?

yes

I know that is a limiting framework to think about things but I'm trying to focus my current studies around that vocabulary.

...

[Christian Miller]

This may come off sounding ignorant but how often does a i minor chord show up in the repertoire that Parker played. As far as I can tell he rarely played tunes that I would characterize as being in a minor key.

Somehow, it seems like a more prevalent sound in hard bop.

Or would you still use harmonic minor over a ii-V that resolves to a minor chord like in the 8th measure of the blues?

Or in other words, did Parker frequently play lines based on harmonic minor?

I know that is a limiting framework to think about things but I'm trying to focus my current studies around that vocabulary.

Parker (and Bud) often played harmonic minor lines on secondary dominants (III7b9 VI7b9). So a tune doesn’t need to be minor key for the harmonic minor to be relevant. Once you get it it’s a key bop sound.

I learned this via transcribing Bird and Bud, and I remember being surprised because if always been told it wasn’t a scale that was used much.

that said, it’s good to master the dominant scale first (at least if you are doing the Barry thing and learning bop that way, it’s not the only way to do it.)

[KingKong]

Parker (and Bud) often played harmonic minor lines on secondary dominants (III7b9 VI7b9). So a tune doesn’t need to be minor key for the harmonic minor to be relevant. Once you get it it’s a key bop sound.

I learned this via transcribing Bird and Bud, and I remember being surprised because if always been told it wasn’t a scale that was used much.

that said, it’s good to master the dominant scale first (at least if you are doing the Barry thing and learning bop that way, it’s not the only way to do it.)

Harmonic minor over the minor 2 5 1 just makes sense because of the 3rd in the 5 7th chord.

Christian forgive me for I don't have an academic music background, when u say harmonic minor over secondary dominants, which harmonic minor?

So if the 3 chord is made into a secondary dominant, do u mean the 1 harmonic minor or a different one, e.g. the harmonic minor of the key where the secondary dominant is the 5 chord ...

[Christian Miller]

Harmonic minor over the minor 2 5 1 just makes sense because of the 3rd in the 5 7th chord.

Christian forgive me for I don't have an academic music background, when u say harmonic minor over secondary dominants, which harmonic minor?

Neither do I.

So if the 3 chord is made into a secondary dominant, do u mean the 1 harmonic minor or a different one, e.g. the harmonic minor of the key where the secondary dominant is the 5 chord ...

Yes exactly, you got it. So your example would be E7 going to Am, we use A harmonic minor. You would use for D harmonic minor on an A7 in the key of C.

A good example if you know Donna Lee is the run in bar 29 that goes over the chords Ab F7

The notes are actually Eb Db C Bb A Gb F Eb
Which is the Bb harmonic minor scale