7#11

**Christian Miller** · 04-23-2022, 05:42 PM

In other news, it’s the blues.

The alteration to the key suggested by the bVI7 chord is b5, Ab, the b7th.

‘Sad as a gypsy’

The #11 on the other hand is diatonic, E

**rpjazzguitar** · 04-23-2022, 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by MarkInLA

PS.
I never said you have to have the nat.5th and the #11 to have an #11 chord.. Yes, playing both at the same time on guitar is next to if not completely impossible..So, if you play say a C E Bb F# chord/arp I will call that a C7#11..because the #11 is eleven plus one half scale tones above the root..and not 4 and one half scale tones above the root (the 5th not present).. If you play C Gb Bb E chord in close harmony you have a C7b5...
On a piano you can play C G E B F# and you have a complete CMaj7#11... Or, if you play C E Gb Bb you have a close harmony C7b5...

In conclusion in order to call a note an 11th, it has to lay (lie ?) at least 11 and not 4 scale tones above the root...
Allot of Disney, Star Trek, and other sci fi outer space movie makers' composers are always writing lydian sounding scores because I think that sound gives the music in an eerie 'where am I' flavor as if we're suspended somewhere in the vacuum of space..It's that high up in octaves #11 causing the (lydian) atmosphere...That certainly would not be the case if the score were filled with b5 chords, would it ?

I really do now leap off here...
Thanks for any and all replies
M

I understand the point.

Say the bassist is playing his lowest Bb. If the guitarist plays E below middle C vs E above middle C (as part of a Bb7#11 or b5 chord) what then? Did the guitarist play a 7#11 or a 7b5 from the point of view of the audience?

Another minor point. When you play a note, the 5th is heard as an overtone. So, if you play the root, there's a faint echo of the 5th whether you fret it or not.

**MarkInLA** · 04-27-2022, 06:56 PM

I'll state it this way:
When b5 is indicated it means just that; flat the 5th on piano, guitar, harp, accordion, whatever instrument is capable of sounding the lowest b5 and much the time is what the bassist will see..alla: [G-7b5 C7b5] to say, [FMaj 7] or 9...
When #11 is indicated it means (with or without the lowest 5th) the 11th note or its higher octaves above the root is sharpened..
When John Williams or Lalo Schifrin want that lydian, kind of outer space or eerie quality they write a #11 in the violins, say, or perhaps flute, way up there, not down at the 'muddy' 5th, flatted... The #11 chord/arp does not have to have the nat 5th. But writing it spread across an orchestra makes the nat 5th easy to obtain, not so on guitar... A b5 and a #11 have very different qualities and applications...
I AM done here, no matter what... M

**Ukena** · 04-27-2022, 07:44 PM

**Christian Miller** · 04-28-2022, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by MarkInLA

I'll state it this way:
When b5 is indicated it means just that; flat the 5th on piano, guitar, harp, accordion, whatever instrument is capable of sounding the lowest b5 and much the time is what the bassist will see..alla: [G-7b5 C7b5] to say, [FMaj 7] or 9...
When #11 is indicated it means (with or without the lowest 5th) the 11th note or its higher octaves above the root is sharpened..
When John Williams or Lalo Schifrin want that lydian, kind of outer space or eerie quality they write a #11 in the violins, say, or perhaps flute, way up there, not down at the 'muddy' 5th, flatted... The #11 chord/arp does not have to have the nat 5th. But writing it spread across an orchestra makes the nat 5th easy to obtain, not so on guitar... A b5 and a #11 have very different qualities and applications...
I AM done here, no matter what... M

But what about a #4 or a b12? ;-)

**MarkInLA** · 04-29-2022, 07:14 PM

OK, one more.
I will amend my claims by going this far with you:
If the chord is a Maj7 or Maj9, alla C E G B (D), with an F# in or on top it's a #11 chord, one common one being C F# B E, bottom to top..
If chord is a Dom7 or 9 and the F# is directly above the root or is the bottom note it's a b5 chord alla: C Gb Bb E..or, Gb C Bb E...
Simplified: If it's a Dom 7 it's a b5...If it's a Maj chord it's a #11....How's that ?

Yeah I said it before. But this really is my final post on this subject. I've given some credit to those who've disagreed with me...
If you still disagree, so be it....

**ragman1** · 04-30-2022, 08:26 AM

Mark, I've come to rescue you! You know, if you didn't announce that every post is your last one, you wouldn't look so crazy when it wasn't!

No one is saying you're wrong. You're not wrong. What you're saying is basic knowledge. Most people here know it. But there's the theory and there's the challenge of playing these chords on the guitar.

The thing is, on a piano it's easier to play these chords because we have ten fingers. On a guitar it's a little different because we can't play every note.

The terms b5 and #11 mean what they say. The b5 is near the root, as you say. The #11 is above the octave, therefore it'll contain all the notes in 3rds up to that point. So a G7b5 would be G B Db F but a G7#11 would be G B D F A C#. That's all you're saying, isn't it?

It's the same with a major chord. A CM7b5 is just C E F# B and a CM7#11 is C E G B D F#.

But whereas that is theoretically correct, we can't usually play every note on a guitar so there have to be modifications; some notes need to be left out. It doesn't mean they're neglected or overlooked. Some voicings have to exclude certain notes, others include some or all of them. A C69#11, for instance, has all the necessary notes. x32232 has the root, 3rd, 6th, 9th, and the #11 (if we want to play them).

So on the guitar it's a question of choosing your voicing in the context of what you're playing. It's occasionally necessary to sacrifice theory to practicality.

**Reg** · 04-30-2022, 03:24 PM

Rag. I’m saying Mark is wrong,
besides crazy.
most dominant chords functioning as the Bb13#11 in the OPs tune
Kenny Baron's Revelation
have a #11 and Nat. 5th and are derived from MM
And the Voicing has nothing to do with spelling or labeling of the chord.

**ragman1** · 05-01-2022, 05:00 AM

But I don't care :-)

Re-read the post. I was making a theoretical and practical point about voicings, not about Revelation.

As far as I know, the chords in Revelation are E7#9 and Eb7#9. Show me a Kenny Barron version where he plays Bb/A7#11.

In any case, if there were such a version and I followed it, I'd play 6x675x and 5x564x because it's practical. I don't care about the theory.

**Reg** · 05-01-2022, 10:57 AM

If you don't care.... why do you keep bringing it up...LOL.

I do care about theory, it's one of the many details that helps make one a better musician.

Practicality on one's instrument is about one's technical skill level, which I think your talking about. But... personally, theory applied to performance is also about one's skill level.

What one plays... has musical implications, even if one isn't aware of the musical implications. How one spells a chord has implications, spelling implies type of chord, where it comes from and helps one to be aware of how that chord is functioning in Context. What one plays or doesn't play can help or hurt a performance... musically.

Typically we're not talking about notated out parts of a score on this Forum. We're on a Jazz Forum.

When one talks about Voicings on guitar, it's not just practicality on one's instrument, it's about the performance.

Anyway the tune did have a part which the OP did post... Bb13#11 A13#11, both of which are common practice Subs for original changes of E7#9 Eb7#9.

**ragman1** · 05-01-2022, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Reg

If you don't care.... why do you keep bringing it up...LOL.

Bring what up? You wrote me a post. My name's on it. What I didn't care about was the tussle between you and Mark. And still don't. Going on about the same old boring stuff.

I do care about theory, it's one of the many details that helps make one a better musician.

I didn't say I didn't care about theory. Quite the contrary, it's very useful.

Practicality on one's instrument is about one's technical skill level, which I think your talking about.

I never said that. I used the word practicality... Oh, you can look back at it.

What one plays or doesn't play can help or hurt a performance... musically.

Of course, obviously it does.

Anyway the tune did have a part which the OP did post... Bb13#11 A13#11

Have you read the whole thread? He found that score in a book and wanted help with the 7#11's. It's all been answered, including the issue of the tritone subs. I basically told him his questions about the 7#11's were redundant because the chords are really 7#9's. Much easier. And I showed him how to play them, too.

There's no argument here, Reg, none at all. I hope the OP's understood it all by now. But I guess that's up to him.