Please help with understanding 2-5-1

[Kevin Michael]

Part One.

Hello. Guitar player here with very little knowledge of theory other than basic 1-4-5. I will attempt to word this question in a form that hopefully make sense to someone reading it. I can play the chords and remember the progression. The problem in my mind, if playing along with another song in A minor, how do I know the "odd" chord is or isn't coming and should be played or not and why?

I'm working on the Frank Vignola Rhythm Fakebook, The Life of a Fool.

Starts: Am7- Bm7(b5) - E7-Am7- Bm7(b5) - E7 - Am7. minor 2-5-1 repeated twice with the 1 chord Am7 lead in?

Next: Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7 - C#dim7 Major 2-5-1? I don't understand how or why the C#dim7. (sidebar, why dim7 and not b9)

Next: Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 Major 2-5-1? Same as above. Why Fmaj7?

Or does the Fmaj7 belong to the two chords that follow Bm7(b5) - E7(b9)? That appears to be a 2-5-1

If the Fmaj7 is part of a 2-5-1 Fmaj7 - Bm7(b5) - E7(b9) is true, then I'm back to why the C#dim7?

Thanks for any direction on understanding this. I've been attempting to figure this out for at least 2 weeks. Of course this is based on my assumption that I have the minor and major 2-5-1 correct. Oh yeah. Please be gentile, I'm mostly self taught and semi old.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Starts: Am7- Bm7(b5) - E7-Am7- Bm7(b5) - E7 - Am7. minor 2-5-1 repeated twice with the 1 chord Am7 lead in?

I'd start by asking myself what key is the piece in? It's in A minor, right?

Sometimes it's good to simplify things and think of a 2-5-1 as just 5-1 (especially when the ii-V only lasts one measure). The 2 is an elaboration. Then the beginning of Manha de carnaval is just alternating between V and i. Nothing unusual about that. Such alternation can begin on either chord.

Next: Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7 - C#dim7 Major 2-5-1? I don't understand how or why the C#dim7. (sidebar, why dim7 and not b9)

I'd start be asking myself what happened to A minor? Oh, we've shifted to C major, its relative major. Going from minor to its relative major (or the other way 'round) is a common device. Yes, we have a 2-5-1 in C major here.

The C#dim7 is a passing chord, pulling us from CMaj7 to Dm7. The half step movement (C->C#->D) is strong. You can really hear it, eh? Diminished chords often squeeze in between chords a whole step apart (ascending or descending) to perform this passing function, to pull you from one chord to the next. In this case, you can also think of C#dim7 as A7b9 without the root. This would be the V7b9 chord going to Dm. There is often more than one way to think about a chord.

Next: Dm9 - G13 - Cmaj7 - Fmaj7 Major 2-5-1? Same as above. Why Fmaj7?

Or does the Fmaj7 belong to the two chords that follow Bm7(b5) - E7(b9)? That appears to be a 2-5-1 [BDLH: not quite]

If the Fmaj7 is part of a 2-5-1 Fmaj7 - Bm7(b5) - E7(b9) is true, then I'm back to why the C#dim7?

CMaj7 to FMaj7 is just I to IV (in C). An example of the circle of fifths -- it's common for IV to follow I. This cycling continues with Bm7b5 -- and here we have a longer version of the ii-V-i in A minor: Bm7b5 E7b9 Am. We've gone from C back to A minor, and the F helped us connect the two 2-5-1s.

=======================

I think it's also good to step back and look at the larger structure of this section. It's sixteen bars, eh, broken into four phrases of four bars each? The chords in the last bar of a phrase often function to pull you forward to the next phrase. Notice that's true for each four bar phrase here -- they all also have pickup notes to start the next phrase, too. The C#dim7 and FMaj7 both do this, pull you to the start of the next phrase rather than just sitting still.

[rpjazzguitar]

Why C#dim7?

At one level, the answer is that it sounded good to the composer.

If you're going from Cmaj7 to Dm7, it wouldn't be unusual for there to be an A7 (which leads to Dm in a V7 to im way). But, if you want a C# in the bass (nice C, C# D movement), then you could write A7/C# or, if you like the sound of A7b9, you could write A7b9/C#. OR, you might like the sound of C#dim7 (almost the same notes) and write that.

That Fmaj7 is there because it sounds good. If, after the fact, you'd like some kind of verbal analysis, it's a Imajor to a IVmajor. Not uncommon.
Not everything is a simple ii V.

For the student, the main point is to get those sounds in your ears and use the analysis, if you need it, to help you remember how to find those sounds when you're playing some other tune in some other key.

[Kevin Michael]

Two very excellent answers, thank you. Explanations are pretty deep and will take me a bit of study to fully comprehend but very helpful. Follow up questions based on these answers. I see the C, C#, D half step movement and it does sound good and makes sense.

Question: If I were to play along with someone on an unknown song, is there some cue that would inform be that this half step movement was about to happen?

[starjasmine]

>> minor 2-5-1 repeated twice with the 1 chord Am7 lead in?
As BigDaddy has pointed out, the larger picture is that this whole section is in Am. If Am7 is the first chord in the piece, then, it is establishing the key center, and the subsequent chords in that section continue in the key of Am.

>> Why Fma7?
I - IV - I is a common way to prolong the I harmonization while adding some root movement. I assume from your description that without the Fma7 the chord progression would be ... Cma7 Cma7 Cma7 ... very static and boring. So swapping in Fma7 for one of those Cma7 chords adds some root movement without fundamentally changing the harmony.

HTH

SJ

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Question: If I were to play along with someone on an unknown song, is there some cue that would inform be that this half step movement was about to happen?

I think the short answer is "no". Different songs can go in different directions. For example...



The B section is a series of 2-5-1s in C (starting on the previous line) then Ab, then E then Ab again them G. Wha-a-a? That's just how they wanted to write the B section, have a little fun, maybe telepathically send a message to John Coltrane

[Kevin Michael]

Thanks people. It wasn't that long ago when I would look at a lead sheet and be completely dumbfounded by what I saw. Now at least I know enough to be able to ask questions.

[pcjazz]

>> minor 2-5-1 repeated twice with the 1 chord Am7 lead in?
As BigDaddy has pointed out, the larger picture is that this whole section is in Am. If Am7 is the first chord in the piece, then, it is establishing the key center, and the subsequent chords in that section continue in the key of Am.

There is no Am7 in the key of Am. The tonic seventh chord would be Am6 or AmMaj7, not Am7.

[rpjazzguitar]

Two very excellent answers, thank you. Explanations are pretty deep and will take me a bit of study to fully comprehend but very helpful. Follow up questions based on these answers. I see the C, C#, D half step movement and it does sound good and makes sense.

Question: If I were to play along with someone on an unknown song, is there some cue that would inform be that this half step movement was about to happen?

So, the situation is, you're trying to play a song you've never heard? And, you're wondering what you might hear that would tell you what's coming up next?

As you learn tunes you'll find that some movements are more common than others. But, composers know that and often want their songs to sound different from the usual.

What some people do is lay out for a chorus, figure out the chords by ear as the other players play them, and then, once they understand the harmony, they play on the next chorus. That's going to be pretty easy for a blues, or rhythm changes, and a lot more difficult for a lot of, say, Wayne Shorter tunes. But, that's the goal and pro players can do it.

[Kevin Michael]

There is no Am7 in the key of Am. The tonic seventh chord would be Am6 or AmMaj7, not Am7.

If that is true then what key is the Bm7(b5), E7, Am7? Not arguing because I don't know. Hence the reason for the question.

[pcjazz]

If that is true then what key is the Bm7(b5), E7, Am7? Not arguing because I don't know. Hence the reason for the question.

Manha de Carnaval (aka Black Orpheus, A Day In The Life Of A Fool) is in the key of A minor. Am7 is incorrect. The correct tonic chord is Am (triad), which could be interpreted as Am6 or AmM7. Try playing Am or Am6 instead wherever Am7 appears in your chart and listen to the difference. (Most of the charts I have seen for this tune give Am except for the final chord, where they give Am6.)

[maxsmith]

Rather than comparing ii - V - I to “I IV V” as you say, line them up with the “I” as the target so you have:

ii - V - I or Dm7 - G7 - Cmaj7
IV - V - I or Fmaj7 - G7 - Cmaj7

If you review the notes in the ii and the IV chords, you’ll find they are nearly the same, in fact, if you play a melody with the notes of the IVmaj7 chord (F-A-C-E) over the Dm7 it will sound just fine - you may even prefer it!

ii - V - I gives you the added benefit of the root (bass) moving in 5ths - a very strong progression.

This is the classic “predominant-dominant-tonic” progression of tonal music, and it is all over the “standard” songs we all play in jazz. This is partly because these are songs, after all, with lyrics, and the solid and satisfying feeling of this progression supports the syntax, grammar, and emotion of the lyric. So, if you master negotiating ii - V - I, you are theoretically prepared to handle maybe 50% or more of standard tune phrases.

As to the Fmaj7 in “…life of a fool”, you will find that it is both the IV chord in the key of C and the VI in the key of Am, so it is a nice way to move from the ii - V - I in C to the ii - V - i in Am - a “pivot” chord.

And the C#dim7 chord - if you look at C#-G-Bb-E, you can find there the notes of an A7b9 chord with the 3rd in the bass, or the V7 chord of the Dmin chord that follows. Often, if you can’t figure out why a chord is there, rearranging the notes will show that it is standing in for something you understand quite well.

As one “semi-old” guy to another, I humbly offer a bit of advice. I caution you against seeing improvising a jazz solo as a theoretical procedure of applying the “right” scales to each chord, or even each progression. Looking at Dmin7 - G7 - Cmaj7 as “D Dorian - G Mixolydian - C Ionian” or just “C major scale” is not the best path to spontaneously creating satisfying melodies, which is a nice definition of jazz improvisation. Plugging in scales ignores rhythm, phrasing, articulation, rests, tension and release, and I suggest it will be difficult for you to resist starting and ending your lines on the tonic note and playing scales up and down in a stepwise fashion. You will probably also tend to start your phrases on the beat and change “scales” at each barline and conclude your phrases on the downbeat instead of anticipating or delaying - none of which is very “jazzy”.

There is an infinite number of ways to play awkward, boring, non-idiomatic, and just plain wrong phrases and still be playing the “right” scale.

Instead of starting with the raw materials of scales and trying to work your way into improvising satisfying meIodies, I suggest instead that you go in the other direction - find phrases and melodies and whole solos by artists whose playing you love, learn to play them, and then analyze what makes them work. Then practice making your own variations based on those phrases you loved when you heard them.

There are plenty of great jazz players, but for me, there is no better improviser of jazz melodies than Paul Desmond. My approach to this tune would be to listen to this recording many times, learn the solo or at least the phrases that really knock me out, and then figure out the relation of the notes to the progression, while also attending to the rhythms, phrasing and melodic movement - intervals, arc, etc.

Enjoy the ride!

[ragman1]

The problem in my mind, if playing along with another song in A minor, how do I know the "odd" chord is or isn't coming

Well, presumably you'll either know the chords already or have them in front of you.

Question: If I were to play along with someone on an unknown song, is there some cue that would inform be that this half step movement was about to happen?

Answer: Don't play unknown songs.

You're allowing yourself to become confused by questioning everything. Keep it simple, go one step at a time. Don't jump the gun.

[starjasmine]

There is no Am7 in the key of Am.

In strict diatonic functional harmony,

- the i chord in A natural minor (no sharps or flats) is extended with a diatonic 7th (m7) which is C, making the extended i chord Am7.

- A harmonic minor has a leading-tone 7th (G#) making the extended i an AmM7

But this is jazz, not strict diatonic functional harmony. So you can swap in any chord that sounds good. Typically, that means avoiding clashes with the melody, what the rest of the band is playing, or the overall style of the piece. You might love b7#9 chords but choose not to throw them in on your country gig :-) Similarly, whether to use mM7, straight m7, a triad, some completely different chord.... that is up to the player/arranger.

The tonic seventh chord would be Am6 or AmMaj7, not Am7.

The thing about the tonic SIXTH chord being Am6 seems incorrect, also. Again, diatonically, in either natural or harmonic minor, the sixth scale degree from A is F, making that chord F/A, not Am6, which would have F# as the M6 scale degree. F# is in neither natural nor harmonic minor, tho it is in melodic minor (ascending, if you want to really get nit-picky, which, I guess, is what I am doing in the interests of not misinforming the OP). To my previous point, tho, this is jazz, not a theory class, so if you want to play Am6 and it sounds good, go ahead.

If I were to play along with someone on an unknown song, is there some cue that would inform be that this half step movement was about to happen?

Ear-training will allow you to identify when a dim7 or any other chord comes along, tho it may not necessarily provide a foolproof hint that someone is planning to add that BEFORE it happens. That skill takes a long time to develop but it is certainly worth the effort. Consider taking some harmony classes at your local community college; typically, this course of instruction provides examples in sound that demonstrate various theoretical concepts. You would learn to hear major, minor, augmented, and diminished sonorities just as plainly as being able to identify red, yellow, blue etc. Combining theoretical knowledge with relative pitch skills and the ability to identify both basic sonorities and extensions will allow you to understand in real time what is happening on the bandstand even if you do not know the song. Again, this level of skill takes time and effort to develop, but it is entirely doable.

The other thing that will REALLY help, at least as much as all the theoretical knowledge and ear training, is familiarity with standard jazz repertoire. Many of the same devices (like ii-V-I) are common to MANY jazz tunes, and as you learn more tunes, you will begin to recognize many of these common devices. The progression I biidim ii biiidim iii is derived from the song I Got Rhythm, and a TON of other songs use this progression. Once you know that one, you will spot that full-diminished chord a mile away, often before it happens, because you will recognize the overall progression or song as an I Got Rhythm variant. In general, you can always add a full-diminished chord that is a half-step below the destination or target chord, as long as it does not clash with whatever else may be going on in the tune and is stylistically appropriate.

That was a lot to take in, so don't get overwhelmed. Just take it a step at a time, use your ear, and keep it fun.

SJ

[Kevin Michael]

Sooo much information to ponder. I have read the answers multiple times and appreciate all that is offered. At this time I am continuing to review the chords as laid out by Frank Vignola in his lesson version of Life a Fool. There are some differences from the Black Orpheus lead sheet I have that I believe to be taken from "the Real Book".

And yes. By nature I sometimes get bogged down by looking to deep rather than just making the music. Other songs I have worked on include All of Me, Autumn Leaves and some Cantaloupe Island through a local teacher. Let's just say that wasn't working out as I had hoped. Frank Vignola came about by some recommendation I saw on the forum. The two lessons I purchased are Jazz Fakebook Rhythm edition and the accompanying solo edition. I'm enjoying the lessons and am determined to get through them. It just takes a while.

Thank you to all that helped.

[bligon]

One way to think about 2 5 1 [or ii7 V7 I or iiø7 V7 i]:


These chords point to the 1 chord. In the very simplest sense they mean play notes that point to the tonic chord.


ex. C as tonic. C E G are the only really consonant notes, like natural harmonics. Everything else is dissonant [meaning it wants to move back to those primary notes.]
What notes want to move? A wants to move down to G, F to E, D to C, B to C and even G wants to move back to C.


The combination of those notes is where the ii7 and V7 chord came from: melodic pitches that point back to the consonant I chord. DFA [Dm] wants to resolve back to CEG. Dm—C. GBDFA [G7 or G9] is a combination of melodic pitches that wants to go back to CEG [C chord].


Most tunes point several places. This tune starts in Am. The melodic notes E G# B D F point back to the Am [ACE]. Out of those melodic pitches you find the chords Bø, E7, E7b9, G#°7. So when I see those chords I think “play melodic pitches that lead to Am.


To point to Dm, these melodic pitches point: A C# E G Bb. Out of those melodic pitches you find the chords Eø, A7, A7b9, C#°7. When the music says C#°7, it means start playing melodic pitches that aims for Dm. That C# surely points up and the Bb points down, and you can hear that Dm coming.

[Scorch]

so i saw a piece of advice somewhere on this forum a few years ago which has proven itself many times over for me : if you dont understand it, keep practicing it. Over time, as you learn by doing, some of these situations just become self evident. Like the movie Nemo- just keep swimming.

[ragman1]

There's a lot of truth in that. One can struggle to understand something intellectually, and not get very far, but keep doing it and it all becomes clear in quite a different way.

[Scorch]

Thank You Ragman.

[Kevin Michael]

Just an overdue update. Thanks to all who offered opinions. I have been working on different songs and have begun to get some amount of understanding. Damn hard work for me but I'm better because of it.

[Scorch]

Great news that is , and it's cumulative, this time next year the moves and concepts your working on now will be more like second nature , you Will eventually recognize some of the chord patterns these songs use, there are threads where people discuss names for certain sequences.