Minor 7b9 chords

[cfwoodland]

So, there's a topic discussing this already, but it's quite old, and I didn't want to necropost. Anyways, I've been interested in m7b9 chords recently, because it's a sound that isn't too often used. I tried experimenting with it, and found that it sounds almost like a V7 chord; for example, Dm7b9 to Gmaj7. What do y'all think of the chord? Could it possibly be used as a Phrygian tonic?

[pcjazz]

Dm7b9 = F7add13

[cfwoodland]

Dm7b9 = F7add13

Oh good point! So Vm7b9 is actually bVII7.

[BWV]

Dm7b9 = F7add13

f a eb d sure,

but no one is going to hear d f c eb as a dominant chord. Even if a bass plays the root, it’s a gnarly voicing.

[pcjazz]

no one is going to hear d f c eb as a dominant chord.

The OP does. And you left out the A, the third of the dominant.

[rintincop]

iii comes to my mind

as in
iii VI ii V

i avoid sustaining b9 on chords that are voiced as minor 7th chords

[cfwoodland]

I created this little progression: Dm7b9 G7 Cm11 F7b9 Bbmaj7

The exact voicings I used were:
Dm7b9: D2-F3-C4-Eb4
G7: G2-F3-B4-D4
Cm11: C2-F3-Bb3-Eb4
F7b9: F2-Gb3-A3-Eb4
Bbmaj7: Bb2-F3-A3-D4

These voicings might not be great for guitar (fairly certain they don't fit in the guitar's range), but I originally played them on piano.

I hear the Dm7b9 as a dominant chord because of the voice leading when the C-Eb minor third descends a half-step to the B-D minor third in the G7 chord.

[rintincop]

D-7b5 b9 maybe? (D F Ab C Eb), that's fine.

But I say "yuck!" to the sound of the chord voicing D F A C Eb

[pcjazz]

D-7b5 b9 maybe? (D F Ab C Eb), that's fine.

But I say "yuck!" to the sound of the chord voicing D F A C Eb

I wasn’t commenting on the voicing, merely observing that Dm7b9 consists of the same notes as (i.e. is an inversion of) F7add13. How you voice it is up to you depending on your choices for what precedes and follows it.

[cfwoodland]

D-7b5 b9 maybe? (D F Ab C Eb), that's fine.

But I say "yuck!" to the sound of the chord voicing D F A C Eb

I agree that the natural fifth can be a bit dissonant; I guess you can either alter it or imply it.

[A. Kingstone]

If it sounds bad it probably is.

[cfwoodland]

If it sounds bad it probably is.

Words to live by.
But I'm really starting to like the m7b9 for the iii chord in a iii-VI-ii-V-I. I don't know, maybe I'm just a little crazy and my ears are broken from listening to too much microtonal music and Schöenberg, but I feel like m7b9 is a sound which should be used more often. It can't be hung on for too long and it needs to be quickly resolved, but if it's voiced right, I think it really offers a cool sound.

[A. Kingstone]

Words to live by.
But I'm really starting to like the m7b9 for the iii chord in a iii-VI-ii-V-I. I don't know, maybe I'm just a little crazy and my ears are broken from listening to too much microtonal music and Schöenberg, but I feel like m7b9 is a sound which should be used more often. It can't be hung on for too long and it needs to be quickly resolved, but if it's voiced right, I think it really offers a cool sound.

So treating the III as leading to II Minor?

IE: Em7b5 (F as flat nine) to A7 to Dm7 (the two)

Can you suggest a voicing? I'm not partial to 'grips' as I want to relate the voice to a scale so I can move it.

[cfwoodland]

So treating the III as leading to II Minor?

IE: Em7b5 (F as flat nine) to A7 to Dm7 (the two)

Exactly!

[cfwoodland]

So treating the III as leading to II Minor?

IE: Em7b5 (F as flat nine) to A7 to Dm7 (the two)

Can you suggest a voicing? I'm not partial to 'grips' as I want to relate the voice to a scale so I can move it.

Alright, so I don't normally play guitar, but here's the voicings I came up with for Em7b9 leading to A7
Em7b9: 0xx031
A7:x0x020

[A. Kingstone]

In 'C' I find the 'F' on the Three Chord kind of 'tipping my hand'. I like to save the 'F' for the A7alt.

As a Harris student I justify the 'F' as a borrowed note in C.

Paul: Do you agree?

[A. Kingstone]

Okay: Here's how I see it.

IIIm7b9 = In C - E G B D F

Three notes of the Diminished - B D F (Ab)

Two Notes Of The Related Dominant - G E (found a semi-tone below each note)

I may try to push this around the fretboard a bit.

[pcjazz]

In 'C' I find the 'F' on the Three Chord kind of 'tipping my hand'. I like to save the 'F' for the A7alt.

As a Harris student I justify the 'F' as a borrowed note in C.

Paul: Do you agree?

I do. I can see the F as a moving voice but wouldn’t want to sit on it on the iii chord. It belongs to ii7 (3rd) and to Bbm6 for VI7alt (5th) so maybe there is an in-between voicing for iii that lets you sustain the F throughout the sequence. But it does risk a b9 dissonance. Perhaps some kind of crunchy cluster in an appropriate setting? As Barry said in his zoom class a couple of weeks ago, there are no wrong notes unless you telegraph them (paraphrasing) — then a few minutes later he apologized for a clam! One of the panelists observed that but for the apology we would be marvelling at his note choices …

[cfwoodland]

I do. I can see the F as a moving voice but wouldn’t want to sit on it on the iii chord. It belongs to ii7 (3rd) and to Bbm6 for VI7alt (5th) so maybe there is an in-between voicing for iii that lets you sustain the F throughout the sequence. But it does risk a b9 dissonance. Perhaps some kind of crunchy cluster in an appropriate setting? As Barry said in his zoom class a couple of weeks ago, there are no wrong notes unless you telegraph them (paraphrasing) — then a few minutes later he apologized for a clam! One of the panelists observed that but for the apology we would be marvelling at his note choices …

I can definitely see where you two are coming from about saving the F as a b13 for the VI7 chord, but I really like the sound of it on the IIIm7. I guess it really just boils down to personal preference.

I view the b9 as an acceptable dissonance for the iii minor chord because IIIm7 it is meant to pull to the VI7 chord (really it's the v of VI). One could easily substitute the IIIm7 for a III7 so that the pull to the VI chord is more obvious (more tension = more pull), so I see the m7b9 chord as an alternative way of adding tension to pull to the VI chord. In my mind, the m7b9 chord is essentially a 7b9#9 chord with the major third omitted.

[pcjazz]

I can definitely see where you two are coming from about saving the F as a b13 for the VI7 chord, but I really like the sound of it on the IIIm7. I guess it really just boils down to personal preference.

Indeed it does, and I marvel at your note choices.