When did the 6th became the 7th for tonic chords?

[pcjazz]

What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.

Exhibit 1.

[pcjazz]

Blue Bossa - tonic Cm7? That’s the Real Book, other (IMO more correct) charts say Cm (Colorado Cookbook) or Cm6 (557 Jazz Standards, I forget the name of the pianist who compiled it). NRB v.1 (Sher) has Cm6. Try it — you’ll like it!

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Blue Bossa - tonic Cm7? That’s the Real Book, other (IMO more correct) charts say Cm (Colorado Cookbook) or Cm6 (557 Jazz Standards, I forget the name of the pianist who compiled it). NRB v.1 (Sher) has Cm6. Try it — you’ll like it!

Just saying it's out there. The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.

[pcjazz]

The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.

Or an accurate one. But you’re right, it’s out there, mistakes and all.

[Tal_175]

What is a "tonic m7"? Minor 7 might be ii, iii or vi, depending on the key, but how can it be I (except as a sub as discussed above)? M6 is the tonic minor as I understand it.

The charts of minor blues standards usually show the tonic chord as I minor 7. I'm not saying that's correct.
I just did a quick search, google brings up the tutorial page of this forum which shows Min7 as the I chord:
Minor Blues Chord Progressions [11 Variations]

[Tal_175]

One thing nice about minor blues with min6 chords is you can think major blues up a 4th.
For example C min 6 is a close relative of F7. C min 6 11, is basically an inversion of F7.

[christianm77]

Barry and Dexter seem to like Cm6 on Blue Bossa

[pcjazz]

Barry and Dexter seem to like Cm6 on Blue Bossa

Transcription:

[christianm77]

Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound in the solo.

[pcjazz]

Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound on this tune.

In the solo, and Cm6dim for the comp.

[christianm77]

In the solo, and Cm6dim for the comp.

sorry yes that's what I meant

[KirkP]

Haha well I was talking about Dexters lines and Barry's comping, but in fact Barry seems to favour mostly a very plain triadic C minor sound on this tune.

I heard at least on CmM7 chord and some Cm6add9s. I don’t care for the Cm7 in the Real Book, and I’m glad I’m in good company.

[jameslovestal]

Just saying it's out there. The Real Book isn't exactly an obscure publication.

I always play Blue Bossa with going from a minor 9th chords to a min7 (with no 5th).

E.g. Cm9, Cm7, Fm9, Fm7.

[BWV]

When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?

[christianm77]

I heard at least on CmM7 chord and some Cm6add9s. I don’t care for the Cm7 in the Real Book, and I’m glad I’m in good company.

Yes those two (esp in the comping I meant the solo.) Definitely more of a melodic minor tinge to that chord....

A lot of great jazz lines on minor seem to work the lower fifth of the scale heavily

1 2 b3 4 5

The 6th or 7th is often deployed as a dramatic or colouristic note to my ears. And the b6 is used (Joe Henderson uses it in his first lines on BB) but obviously sounds more dissonant over the minor.

Oh - a good b7 tune is Mr PC

Also Footprints really showcases the b7 on minor

[christianm77]

When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?

Dunno. Django played them though. Manoir de mes Reves. Oriental Strut has quartal harmony.

Douce Ambience stresses the b7 in the bridge, but I think that’s more of an appoggiatura. Dorian mode though.

[christianm77]

I always play Blue Bossa with going from a minor 9th chords to a min7 (with no 5th).

E.g. Cm9, Cm7, Fm9, Fm7.

Yeah it’s not ‘wrong’; it’s more a Wes sound to my ears. If you listen to a lot of 60s Wes you are going to hear more of a m7 sound on minor for instance. Trane and Wayne as well. Anything post Kind of Blue

[christianm77]

So in Nica’s dream the first two chords are often given as Bbm(maj7) and Abm(maj7) but in this solo Wes constantly shifts back and forth between the natural and flattened 7. Which was typical for him on all minor chords.

[KirkP]

I don’t know if it’s true, but I once read something about Joe Pass considering all of the notes between the 5th and octave to be fair game when playing minor.

Scales? We don’t need no stinking scales, just play a line that sounds good.

[christianm77]

I don’t know if it’s true, but I once read something about Joe Pass considering all of the notes between the 5th and octave to be fair game when playing minor.

Scales? We don’t need no stinking scales, just play a line that sounds good.

I think that's pretty much how I view it. I mean it's not rocket science really. The 6 and the 7 have a strong jazz colour... the b7 has a vibe too, but different, more like major on minor sound. And the b6 is super dissonant which is also expressive, and it is used in many jazz lines.

And any minor will work in any of the 'melodic minor' subs... So you don't have to be limited to playing 'melodic minor' scales, you can play melodies if you understand that minor sound intuitively.

[PMB]

When did major 6/9 voicings become widely used for the tonic?

In the early '60s after the music of Jobim became more widely known.

[christianm77]

But weren't the Bossa guys influenced themselves by Barney Kessel? Did he use 6/9's?

[christianm77]

BTW it's an obvious point but I think part of the reason why m7 weakens or neutralises the minor colour is that while m6 and m(maj7) are more complex tonalities and don't contain a major triad:

Am6 = A bass + C 'Lydian' triad (1 3 #4)
Am(maj7) = A bass + C Augmented triad (1 3 #5)

Am7 contains a major triad

Am7 = A bass + C major triad

Which tends to draw the ear.

[PMB]

But weren't the Bossa guys influenced themselves by Barney Kessel? Did he use 6/9's?

Jobim felt critics overestimated the influence jazz had on his harmonic development. He believed that Debussy and Ravel were much more important.

Yes, Kessel, like many other jazz guitarists played 6/9 chords but I associate that sound mostly with their post '60s recordings. I imagine the employment of left-hand 'Type B' rootless 6/9 voicings (C6/9 = A, D, E, G) by pianists such as Bill Evans, Ahmad Jamal and Wynton Kelly in the late '50s also helped establish their regular use as a tonic. Maybe we should start another thread like our 'altered scale' discussion to get to the root of all this (pardon the pun!)?

Clare Fisher strikes me as an important transitional figure as well. He was one of the first musicians in the US to become a Brazilian music expert and his arranging skills were admired by Herbie Hancock who stated, "Clare Fisher was a major influence on my harmonic concept. He and Bill Evans and Ravel and Gil Evans. You know, that's where it really came from".