bVII7 in functional harmony

[christianm77]

Well, I thought it was a melodic minor thing at first, but it's actually not.

You frequently see stuff like major 13s on V7 chords in a minor key... A good example is pretty much all of the Wes solo above where he is strongly outlining Gm9 (the first line for example) going eventually to Fm, also Charlie Christian's A13 arpeggio on the last bar of the first A of his solo going to Dm. So we are also talking about the major third of the target tonality (I.)

Another great example from the standards repertoire can be found in the tune Invitation.

So it has to be a genuine major on minor modal interchange, the borrowing of major key tonalities into the minor key. (Or mixolydian on V7 going to I minor if you are a chordalist.)

It's not THAT weird. Think about Bill Evans penchant for playing a natural 9th on the IIm7b5 chord.. so F# on a Em7b5 in Beautiful Love going to A7, Dm, and that's a fairly common textbook choice for that chord (Locrian #2) so is not 'beyond the pale' even for the type of 'jazz' theory texts that seem compelled to tidy up jazz, Hans Groiner style.

Another choice (that I like and shows up a lot) is the half whole sound on V7 in a minor key; G13b9 into Cm for instance.

And yet the simple suggestion - swap in the major key dominant/mixolydian mode into the minor key - is rarely heard, at least in the books I've looked at.

[alez]

I should leave the V7-I to Mozart if only because the advice really made me laugh

Thanks for the "hints", it makes a great summary

[christianm77]

I should leave the V7-I to Mozart if only because the advice really made me laugh

Yeah they used to make music for retards back then (jk)

Thanks for the "hints", it makes a great summary

Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant? TBH I don't seperate out the two functions. A lot of jazzers don't.

[KirkP]

Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G7, so I would call it a dominant function. When you say “predominant” do you mean subdominant (e.g. IV) or secondary dominant (as in V of V)?

I’m not much of a theorist, but since Bm7b5 = Dm6 = G9 (without the root), if I’m playing in the key of A major I think of G7 as a sub for Dm6. Dm6 is the iv in the key of A minor, which is subdominant. So couldn’t one think of a bVII7 chord as a subdominant borrowed from the minor key?

On the other hand, in the key of A major Dm6 pulls strongly back to the tonic chord, and G7 does the same. Pulling back to the tonic chord is a dominant function.

Of course when I’m playing I don’t worry about the terminology—just how it sounds.

[christianm77]

I think so. TBH there’s less to be gained by making Dom/subdom distinction than there is by not making it and just putting the chords together into a general umbrella.

I would make a distinction between resolving chords with tritones in (7, o7, m6, m7b5) and consonant/blending (maj7, m7 etc) but even with the m7b5 that’s sort of ambiguous.

Chords with tritones sound like they want to go somewhere more than chords without. So if you want a more sophisticated floating sound get rid of the tritone. Not playing the 3rd on the dominant is the most common way to do this. Backdoor progressions do this for you.... Smoooooooth. See the rise of ‘baby boomer’ soul/black church influenced harmony that uses the Vsus chord over the V7 and the backdoor over the straight dominants. But this goes back to Prez at least. gospel harmonies favour a 6 note major scale scale with no 7th. Some have said this goes back to West African harmonic practices.

Even Brahms was in on some of this game, starting to relax the role of the leading tone and the V-I cadence, but it’s become one of the most common moves in popular music (although judging from Demi Lovato and Bruno Mars the tonicising II V is back in fashion.)

[PMB]

Yeah they used to make music for retards back then (jk)

So Jonathan Kreisberg thinks he's better than Mozart?

[christianm77]

So Jonathan Kreisberg thinks he's better than Mozart?

Yes (jk)

[PMB]

Yes (jk)

...and he prefers prog rock groups? Interesting!

[alez]

A see similarity between these comments about tonicisation and eliminating of tritones and Im6 vs. Im7 as tonal centres (Im tonic function)... strangely, m6 (with a tritone) seems more accepted as Im tonic function than m7...

[alez]

Brahms and Bruno Mars in the same sentence. Hell, yeah.

[alez]

Bb7 = Dm7b5 BTW, so yeah, it also kind of subdominant?

Oh, you don't earn any points for this one because that's the main reason I opened the thread, as written on the very post

[Alter]

The simplest way I can think of a bVII7 chord is to call it a "special function chord" and just voice lead it as a dominant chord, resolving to wherever it resolves.

I pretty much call all dominants that, if they don't resolve to their fourth (so they'd be some kind of secondary dominant), or to a half step lower (so they would be tritone subs).

Through substitutions, it can become many different things, but being a Dom7 chord, it's always creating tension that needs to be released. That tension and release movement is more important than the actual chords used.

[christianm77]

In any kind of theory or analysis there's always a tension between how detailed you go and how general.

Too general, and you risk losing any value in your analysis. If everything is just a manifestation of V7-I why is it that different progressions sound different? So it's not really analysis.

Too specific, and you are just talking about each sound in isolation. If each chord and chord progression is its own special sound and function, that's not really analysis either. It's like mapping a country at 1:1 scale.

So you find something in between, and CST is an example of this.... (CST's problems however lie in both its lack of generality and specificity, so you can't win em all.)

These days, I find myself oscillating madly between the almost naively general and the exactingly specific. Weirdly, I don't think do much in between.

Modality is important in static harmony, and efficiency of cadential resolution in things that move (which in English means, look out for half steps when going chord to chord, the more the better and especially in contrary motion.)

bVII7 chords definitely have a modality associated with them, because that minor into major interchange is sooo familiar. The flip side is that that modality can be superimposed onto every dominant chord.

[steve burchfield]

Excellent examples. Charlie Christian was heavily influenced by Lester Young who had a predilection for the natural 6th when playing in the minor. From a harmonic point of view, that tends to suggest the major 3rd on the IV chord.

It's interesting to compare all the minor blues variants when it comes to the IV and V chords, especially with players like B.B. King, Magic Sam and Otis Rush who worked mostly outside of a jazz-blues context. Otis Rush's All Your Love - a different tune than the one referenced earlier - has a minor i, IV and V. All this makes sense if one considers the many different types of minor scales (harmonic, melodic, dorian, natural etc.). Then, of course there's Kenny Burrell's Chitlins Con Carne where he covers nearly all bases by turning the the I and V into 7#9 chords!

As for Blues for Alice, I hear the 'B' in the Em7 chord as part of a descending voice-leading line: F(C) - Em7(B) - A7b9(Bb) - Dm(A) but Bird was also a big Lester fan, so you may be right there.

For the last few years my main public playing income has been solo at retirement centers before covid. I bring a boom box with the Benny Goodman Charlie Christian music and play along. It really brings a smile to a lot of older people to hear the music that was popular when they were young,it brings back good memories and return bookings.Billie Holliday works well too.

[GTRMan]

Oh, you don't earn any points for this one because that's the main reason I opened the thread, as written on the very post

Subdominant. Right?

[christianm77]

Subdominant. Right?

Nah it's Dominant. :-)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Nah it's Dominant. :-)

What are your "chord buckets"? I have five: I, i, V, IV and iv.

[christianm77]

What are your "chord buckets"? I have five: I, i, V, IV and iv.

It's either 2; tonic or untonic

Or like 1,000s

Of the 2 buckets, it's worth making a distinction between like Major and Minor modalities, and occasionally some other mode, so that you get basically 4+ buckets. But function is separate from modality?

For instance, IV and iv sub in for V but not necessarily for each other... So it gets ... more complicated...So making the major/minor distinction does help a little bit.

Everything else is voice leading, really.

[christianm77]

Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

Try it.....

[christianm77]

Nah it's Dominant. :-)

Its actually subdominant.

[christianm77]

Its actually subdominant.

its actually dominant

[mr. beaumont]

Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

Try it.....

Its remarkable how hip backing can make a harmonically vanilla solo sound damn good...provided it's rhythmically interesting/solid.

[wolflen]

Also this might seem dumb but; comp on dissonances, solo on consonances.

Try it.....

not dumb at all...but it does take some experimentation and understanding the "logic" ..using chord fragments from a diatonic scale over
an altered dominant will work if done with some care and in context of the composition..much like playing a pure diatonic solo line in one key
will sound very "out" played against diatonic chords in another..but making it sound "natural" or even better-tasty-is the trick

Scofield comes to mind..

[christianm77]

Yeah.... but altered chords are, hard to track melodically and harmonically in single notes. You are better off using some sort of consonance (G7 would take Db, Eb, Abm, Bbm triads for example. Or Db/Bbm penta) unless you are only interested in setting up the tonic chord. Most contemporary players do this type of thing.

(But also minor diatonic against altered Dom backing sounds great.)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Nah it's Dominant. :-)

Its actually subdominant.

its actually dominant

Ooooooooooooooooo-