The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

[pcjazz]

Now that you mention it, although I've never had the honor of attending a live Barry Harris workshop, I've watched a number of videos of him in action and have had a difficult time "getting it." Yet I've absorbed incredibly insightful musical ideas from students of his - like Chris of "Things I've Learned from Barry Harris" and others - all of whom give great credit to Barry Harris for what they've learned.

This strongly suggests that Mr. Harris must be an outstanding teacher

I have been fortunate in studying Barry’s method from Howard Rees, who essentially apprenticed with him for several years, as well as by attending Barry’s own workshops when he visited Toronto fairly regularly (and now his Zoom webinars). I would have found it difficult to learn the approach from the occasional workshops given that Barry does not follow a systematic curriculum but rather divides his teaching time between introducing the basics (extra-note rules, 6-diminished scales) and demonstrating and explaining whatever interests him particularly at the time, often at an advanced level. That said, I always came away from a workshop with months’ worth of sounds and ideas to explore, even when a lot of it went right over my head.

Howard did a great job in structuring Barry’s instruction in the workshop videos. They would be a good place to start for someone who is unable to take group lessons with him. Alan Kingstone’s book is also recommended for showing how to put Barry’s harmonic approach onto the guitar.

Barry is a great teacher in the same way that Lenny Breau was — he can show you amazing things to do on your instrument and offers an approach to the music based on a lifetime’s experience and (at least in Barry’s case) reflection. But if you need a structured progressive syllabus it may be better to look elsewhere first.

[lawson-stone]

In my experience there are at least two kinds of great teachers. I refer to them as Jungle teachers and Zoo teachers. The Jungle teacher has no evident system or organized approach, but simply to sit with them and process content is to learn an enormous amount. They introduce you to the content as it appears in the wild, and teach you to navigate particular points in it, to stay alive, and even enjoy your trek through an otherwise daunting territory. I had a professor like that at Yale. We referred to his "Famous Fifty" which was basically about 50 little packages of content that tended to drift in and out of his classes, no matter what the course. We always said yo need to take this guy's classes until you realized you had the "Fifty" and then you were ready to move on. His classes were not very well organized, but simply immersions into a body of content, like parachuting into the jungle.

"Zoo" teachers present an orderly arrangement of the material, elements classified and sequenced. Much easier to absorb, though any systematization of content tends to break connections that reach across categories. Zoo teachers have the models, the principles, the organization. They also might be just fine in the jungle, but then again, maybe not. Organization occurs by disconnecting content elements from their organic contexts of multiple interconnections and putting them into a hierarchy of limited connections. So some things get displaced.

Anyhow, from outside the whole Barry Harris world, he sounds more like a Jungle teacher, and it sounds like he also trained some who became outstanding Zoo teachers.

[joelf]

Agreed, 100%. Goes to show that being a great musician doesn't make you a great teacher, and some of the best teachers aren't all that "amazing" of musicians. But they sure know how to teach. Everyone has their gifts. Mr. Harris's isn't teaching. Lol. I thought I was the only one who felt that way.

Barry is not a bad teacher. He has his 'ways', sure. A lot of his students are lame, untalented, or looking for Daddy. Is that his fault---any more than the long, boring solos by players who think they're 'keeping the flame' of Trane and Sonny those guys' faults?

It's on the student to listen attentively and apply selectively. Monk was a teacher by example. Didn't say much, but played for and with the young talent that flocked to him. They learned...

[rintincop]

Christian, it's my understanding that 20 years ago you read one out four books written by Mark Levine. And that being "The Jazz Theory Book" which is the Levine book that does not go into depth about block chords. Yet you speak as if you were a Levine theory expert. You have not read his "The Jazz Piano Book "(covers block chord) nor his 'Drop 2' book (the whole book is concerned only block chords, how to vary them, and manage them in real time, numerous things that Barry doesn't think of) .

"Furthermore, Barry's 8 note dominant scale is actually different from the dominant bebop scale. It has a b6."

Levine covers this in his Drop 2 block chording book.

"Levine invokes David Baker in the JTB - quite rightly IMO - because he's the bop scales guy, not Barry. That said I think his description is simplistic even relative to the Baker books."

Levine gives thanks and praise to Barry in the introduction of his book and refers to the Barry Harris that Mark hosted in Berkeley California in the early 90's that I attended. I witnessed Barry and Mark sitting at the piano together and trading ideas for several hours. Levine taped the session and went home and transcribed all the examples. I have a copy of that 25 page transcription.

[rintincop]

I like how Levine uses McCoy style fourth voicings in one of his numerous bock chord systems.

[Vladan]

No, in BH terms an arp is a triad with a doubled root and a chord has 4 different notes. D7 is a chord.

OK, so, could you please tell me what does the following mean, what to play:

... 'arpeggio' for instance. Unlike the way most of us use it (including me) he always uses it to mean a three note triad with a doubled root - so C E G C'. So when you are constructing lines, it's quick for him to say 'arpeggio up from the seventh of D7' or something, and the old hands know right away what he means. So there is that. ...

?

[rintincop]

Let me be clear, when I teach, I teach mostly Barry Harris methods, not Levine.
But I also teach and play the hip piano voicings that Levine so well catalogued from studying the playing of Herbie Hancock, Kenny Barron and McCoy Tyner. Barry Harris is not interested in that hip voicings menu.
When I play, I play the Barry Harris inspired "little movements". And I meanwhile simultaneously play the hip chord voicings underneath that Levine catalogued. They are an ideal combination in my mind. Unfortunately guitarists can't do that, guitar is a very limited instrument compared to piano. Perhaps that is one reason why Sher and Levine encouraged Randy Vincent to translate Levine for guitar?

[christianm77]

Does it mean, since the seventh of D7 is C, you are supposed to play note sequence C E G C over D7 chord?

Correct. But the C is up an octave.

[christianm77]

Christian, it's my understanding that 20 years ago you read one out four books written by Mark Levine. And that being "The Jazz Theory Book" which is the Levine book that does not go into depth about block chords. Yet you speak as if you were a Levine theory expert. You have not read his "The Jazz Piano Book "(covers block chord) nor his 'Drop 2' book (the whole book is concerned only block chords, how to vary them, and manage them in real time, numerous things that Barry doesn't think of)

I've just reread most of JTB. There would be little point in discussing it if I hadn't. I haven't reread the Jazz Piano book yet, but there seems to be a lot of overlap from early chapters. I'm quite glad that I did, because it's really defined my thinking in terms of that book.

"Furthermore, Barry's 8 note dominant scale is actually different from the dominant bebop scale. It has a b6."

Levine covers this in his Drop 2 block chording book.

OK. Sorry, why are we still talking about block chords?

"Levine invokes David Baker in the JTB - quite rightly IMO - because he's the bop scales guy, not Barry. That said I think his description is simplistic even relative to the Baker books."

Levine gives thanks and praise to Barry in the introduction of his book and refers to the Barry Harris that Mark hosted in Berkeley California in the early 90's that I attended. I witnessed Barry and Mark sitting at the piano together and trading ideas for several hours. Levine taped the session and went home and transcribed all the examples. I have a copy of that 25 page transcription.

He does. But he doesn't teach anything distinctively Barry Harris. As I say, I wonder if that's a conscious choice? Leaving Barry to do his thing (which is also his livelihood)...

[christianm77]

Let me be clear, when I teach, I teach mostly Barry Harris methods, not Levine.

Judging from your posts on JGO, I think you have your own take on it and have combined it with other stuff. Which is cool... evolution and all that.

But I also teach and play the hip piano voicings that Levine so well catalogued from studying the playing of Herbie Hancock, Kenny Barron and McCoy Tyner. Barry Harris is not interested in that hip voicings menu.
When I play, I play the Barry Harris inspired "little movements". And I meanwhile simultaneously play the hip chord voicings underneath that Levine catalogued. They are an ideal combination in my mind. Unfortunately guitarists can't do that, guitar is a very limited instrument compared to piano. Perhaps that is one reason why Sher and Levine encouraged Randy Vincent to translate Levine for guitar?

'Hip' is a relative concept.

I think ultimately I gave up trying to apply the BH harmonic system to guitar. And the linear stuff, great. The chordal stuff? Very difficult, feels like you are fighting the guitar sometimes. I like the 8 note scales as a unifying concept, and I can come up with interesting voice leading by exploring them... I use some things I like and can physically play. Sounds wonderful when Pasquale Grasso plays it of course.

The temptation is always to try and turn the guitar into a keyboard through sheer application. Stuff that is dead obvious on the piano is very hard on guitar - even transposing a phrase by an octave needs practice. It takes a lot of work to be able to take an intervallic voicing through a scale, for instance.

I'm not sure this obsessive 'keyboardisation' is wise. The guitar has guitar stuff that works well. I think you have to understand resources like open strings and so on to get the most out of it, cultivate a distinctively guitaristic language rather than just be some crappy version of a piano player.

You can obviously be influenced by pianists, but it's refracting this influence through the guitar in a way that sounds good and natural on the instrument. Sometimes it's just thinking like another instrument, but doing it in a way that fits your instrument.

False fingerings is a classic one taken from tenor sax to guitar.. .

Imitating bebop style left hand shells/right hand lines which you can imply by call and response, sounds very cool and hip on guitar; and is not that hard to do when you get into it.

My favourite harmonist on guitar ATM is probably Peter Bernstein who sort of avoids trying to make the guitar into the piano to some extent - although he is heavily influenced by Monk. He has a distinctive sound.

I also like Reiner Baas for this, although I don't understand what he is doing very well as yet - some of it could only be guitar though. Also Kurt gets a lot of mileage out of superficially straightforward voicings.

[christianm77]

In my experience there are at least two kinds of great teachers. I refer to them as Jungle teachers and Zoo teachers. The Jungle teacher has no evident system or organized approach, but simply to sit with them and process content is to learn an enormous amount. They introduce you to the content as it appears in the wild, and teach you to navigate particular points in it, to stay alive, and even enjoy your trek through an otherwise daunting territory. I had a professor like that at Yale. We referred to his "Famous Fifty" which was basically about 50 little packages of content that tended to drift in and out of his classes, no matter what the course. We always said yo need to take this guy's classes until you realized you had the "Fifty" and then you were ready to move on. His classes were not very well organized, but simply immersions into a body of content, like parachuting into the jungle.

"Zoo" teachers present an orderly arrangement of the material, elements classified and sequenced. Much easier to absorb, though any systematization of content tends to break connections that reach across categories. Zoo teachers have the models, the principles, the organization. They also might be just fine in the jungle, but then again, maybe not. Organization occurs by disconnecting content elements from their organic contexts of multiple interconnections and putting them into a hierarchy of limited connections. So some things get displaced.

Anyhow, from outside the whole Barry Harris world, he sounds more like a Jungle teacher, and it sounds like he also trained some who became outstanding Zoo teachers.

I really like this distinction. TBH, I think we should have more 'Jungle' and less 'Zoo'. Education institutions like Zoo of course, because it has measurable outcomes etc; until you hit the postgrad stage of course. Jazz is all about the wilds of course.

It's interesting that your point about systematisation of content breaking connections - sounds like a paper I was reading today.

Students need to be disabused of the expectation that they will understand everything right away, but reassured that if they stick around, it will make more sense over time. You might not be able to participate fully, but you will be able to participate, and that peripheral participation, however small, is worthwhile, because what everyone is doing is actually the REAL thing, not some simplified formalised BS version.

You know what makes me laugh? I produce YouTube content for no clear audience - I vlog what's on my mind, its sent out into the ether with no idea of who, If anyone might get something from it. Some people seem to get something from it, at least the ones who comment. But I still get pissy messages from student saying 'this is BS, what is he talking about? Can't he explain it?' as if I should somehow be making neat little lessons tailored exactly for their level of development.

OTOH I increasingly feel my role is to be a guide through the depths of the massive thickets of information people have at their disposal, and try and find paths through it that suit them.

[rpjazzguitar]

There's a bromide in parenting that says "it's not what you say, it's who you are". I like that, but I didn't find it to be entirely true. But, it might be 70% true.

I've had teachers communicate both ways.

Carl Barry, with whom I studied many years ago, was very organized in his approach. He taught specific things that I still use.

Warren Nunes was a mixture. He had the occasional spoken gem. But, he never said a word I recall about the fact that he almost always had a bassist in his individual lessons. Often a drummer, and once in a while a pianist also. So, your individual lesson was a quartet. I remember one time, he kept soloing chorus after chorus -- it wasn't clear why, until he finally smiled and said, "that time I got it", at which point I realized that he was trying to do something specific and kept after it until it was perfect. He never said we should do that, but it was who he was.

I've had others who were more verbal, more theoretical, but the lessons didn't appreciably change or improve my playing.

I got a huge amount from group lessons with a teacher who was frequently quite harsh. He had very little specific advice for soloing, but would yell "no licks! make melody!".
He had very specific instruction for how to comp. Chord grips, voice leading, rhythmic content, you name it. The unspoken part was all about basic musicianship, particularly opening my eyes to what it meant to have big ears.

[rintincop]

Christian, I didn’t realize you were not fluent in Drop 2 block chords on guitar. Now I get why you don't like to talk about them and want the topic dropped from this Levine thread. And block chords are such a big part of Barry Harris' teaching, and Levine's too.
You say you gave up on block chords. Are you really justifying your position based on your claim that it's piano stuff and shouldn't be carried over to guitar. But we know Barry has successfully taught the 6th diminished scale to jazz guitarists to play block chord melodies in Drop 2. There are books on it just for guitar, such as the edition by Allen Kingston. This guitarist seems to have little trouble with Drop 2 block chord melody playing:

Christian wrote:
"I think ultimately I gave up trying to apply the BH harmonic system to guitar. And the linear stuff, great. The chordal stuff? Very difficult, feels like you are fighting the guitar sometimes. I like the 8 note scales as a unifying concept, and I can come up with interesting voice leading by exploring them... I use some things I like and can physically play. Sounds wonderful when Pasquale Grasso plays it of course.

The temptation is always to try and turn the guitar into a keyboard through sheer application. Stuff that is dead obvious on the piano is very hard on guitar - even transposing a phrase by an octave needs practice. It takes a lot of work to be able to take an intervallic voicing through a scale, for instance.

I'm not sure this obsessive 'keyboardisation' is wise. The guitar has guitar stuff that works well. I think you have to understand resources like open strings and so on to get the most out of it, cultivate a distinctively guitaristic language rather than just be some crappy version of a piano player."

[christianm77]

Oh brother, yes I can play drop 2 block chord harmonisations on the guitar. It’s not especially difficult although to do so with BH’s exact voicings represent some technical challenges on some string sets.

(Most people fake a little bit at speed, chuck in a 6/9 here and there for instance.)

This type of thing is very much part of the basic vocabulary of jazz guitar. (By and large, things with a tenth are very guitaristic.) they can also be a bit passé for that reason. Parallelism. I like to break that up a bit because it’s SOOOO basic bitch jazz guitar, so to speak.

Look, TBH I feel you are hung up on block chords and great though they are that’s not the be all and end all of Barry’s approach.

[christianm77]

One nice thing (possibly the only nice thing) about the ukulele is that drop2’s become four way close.

Not sure what you’ll do with that information, but good to know.

Lyle Ritz was good at block chords on the ukulele.

[joelf]

Carl Barry, with whom I studied many years ago, was very organized in his approach. He taught specific things that I still use.

Wow! Carl was my teacher when I was 17! glad someone would even mention him. He's a great guy and fine player---has been for years. He and Joanne are some of my favorite people. Real troopers---and 'salt of the earth'.

(Carl was the reason I ended up studying with Chuck Wayne---a whole other topic not germane here. He was always talking about Chuck, b/c he became a sort of acolyte---as did many of his generation. Chuck was very charismatic and persuasive)...

So thanks for the mention, and I'm glad he helped you. Helped me, too...

[broturtel]

I have been fortunate in studying Barry’s method from Howard Rees, who essentially apprenticed with him for several years, as well as by attending Barry’s own workshops when he visited Toronto fairly regularly (and now his Zoom webinars). I would have found it difficult to learn the approach from the occasional workshops given that Barry does not follow a systematic curriculum but rather divides his teaching time between introducing the basics (extra-note rules, 6-diminished scales) and demonstrating and explaining whatever interests him particularly at the time, often at an advanced level. That said, I always came away from a workshop with months’ worth of sounds and ideas to explore, even when a lot of it went right over my head.

Howard did a great job in structuring Barry’s instruction in the workshop videos. They would be a good place to start for someone who is unable to take group lessons with him. Alan Kingstone’s book is also recommended for showing how to put Barry’s harmonic approach onto the guitar.

Barry is a great teacher in the same way that Lenny Breau was — he can show you amazing things to do on your instrument and offers an approach to the music based on a lifetime’s experience and (at least in Barry’s case) reflection. But if you need a structured progressive syllabus it may be better to look elsewhere first.

Hey this makes a lot of sense! Good word, man. I will say that there is a ton of info in the workshop videos I've seen of his. Just not my style of learning. Definitely one of the best players of all time though.

[broturtel]

In my experience there are at least two kinds of great teachers. I refer to them as Jungle teachers and Zoo teachers. The Jungle teacher has no evident system or organized approach, but simply to sit with them and process content is to learn an enormous amount. They introduce you to the content as it appears in the wild, and teach you to navigate particular points in it, to stay alive, and even enjoy your trek through an otherwise daunting territory. I had a professor like that at Yale. We referred to his "Famous Fifty" which was basically about 50 little packages of content that tended to drift in and out of his classes, no matter what the course. We always said yo need to take this guy's classes until you realized you had the "Fifty" and then you were ready to move on. His classes were not very well organized, but simply immersions into a body of content, like parachuting into the jungle.

"Zoo" teachers present an orderly arrangement of the material, elements classified and sequenced. Much easier to absorb, though any systematization of content tends to break connections that reach across categories. Zoo teachers have the models, the principles, the organization. They also might be just fine in the jungle, but then again, maybe not. Organization occurs by disconnecting content elements from their organic contexts of multiple interconnections and putting them into a hierarchy of limited connections. So some things get displaced.

Anyhow, from outside the whole Barry Harris world, he sounds more like a Jungle teacher, and it sounds like he also trained some who became outstanding Zoo teachers.

This is my favorite reply to this thread thus far. Thank you for sharing this man and it gave me such a new understanding of learning. I can't even tell you how much this just helped me. I know that sounds weird but this comment really just put together some pieces in my head and gave me some new ideas on learning new stuff. Thank you so much.

[broturtel]

Barry is not a bad teacher. He has his 'ways', sure. A lot of his students are lame, untalented, or looking for Daddy. Is that his fault---any more than the long, boring solos by players who think they're 'keeping the flame' of Trane and Sonny those guys' faults?

It's on the student to listen attentively and apply selectively. Monk was a teacher by example. Didn't say much, but played for and with the young talent that flocked to him. They learned...

Okay, "bad teacher" was the wrong phrase. I'd say he's definitely a different teacher than I've come across. I guess I'm more used to organized learning systems. Those work best for me. But also introducing "connected" topics with it that are more advanced really helps for me too. But I will definitely say from what I've seen on those workshop videos, his students were all over the place much of the time. Things became more confusing when his students would ask weird questions and then he'd have to say "no, no. now wait a minute..." lolol. Priceless.

[lawson-stone]

Wow! Carl was my teacher when I was 17! glad someone would even mention him. He's a great guy and fine player---has been for years. He and Joanne are some of my favorite people. Real troopers---and 'salt of the earth'.

(Carl was the reason I ended up studying with Chuck Wayne---a whole other topic not germane here. He was always talking about Chuck, b/c he became a sort of acolyte---as did many of his generation. Chuck was very charismatic and persuasive)...

So thanks for the mention, and I'm glad he helped you. Helped me, too...

I attended a weekend jazz workshop in Louisville Ky. that was taught by Chuck Wayne and Gene Bertoncini (if I recall correctly). It was wonderful. These two interacted and complemented each other. I didn't know enough at the time to realize just how lucky I was to be there.

[Reg]

Yea getting back to comping... Block chord patterns suck....and are even worse on guitar.... then throw in the vanilla mud sound of diminished .... Now were in the solo sleep world.

I'm old... we all learned the same BS. Some different names and labels... but Guitar is a very different instrument.
(might be why Randy V. never took up Chucks suggestion to make a guitar version of Mark's jazz book, not to mention... Randy's not really known for being in the pocket, love his playing... but comping?.
If you want more personal versions and expansions of BH... go east to Berkman's harmony book, his jazz musicians guide is great, he can also play.... Or how about back in the 80's here in Calif. down at MI in Hollywood with Billy Childs.... use to love covering his tunes.... this was over 30 years ago. I meet him through mutual friends... but if you took the best of Herbie and Chick.... you would have Billy. There are many approaches to playing.

[OneWatt]

If you want more personal versions and expansions of BH... go east to Berkman's harmony book, his jazz musicians guide is great, he can also play....

Agreed. Berkman's "Jazz Harmony Book" has some nice narratives covering BH's perspective (aimed at piano players, but universal theory). See pp. 90-99 in particular.

[Irishmuso]

I assumed rintincop’s examples are piano chords, not guitar.

Of course I didn't read it in the context of his previous mention of Levine's piano book. Silly me. I'll give them a go from a drop 2 approach.

[lawson-stone]

This is my favorite reply to this thread thus far. Thank you for sharing this man and it gave me such a new understanding of learning. I can't even tell you how much this just helped me. I know that sounds weird but this comment really just put together some pieces in my head and gave me some new ideas on learning new stuff. Thank you so much.

Well thank you for that. I would add that "Jungle" teachers prefer the inductive method: like "hard immersion" in language studies. "Zoo" teachers prefer the deductive method--traditional grammar and vocabulary drilling in language learning. Of course, we need both to be competent.

I tend to be a jungle guy, but then I get scared and run to the zoo.

[broturtel]

...I tend to be a jungle guy, but then I get scared and run to the zoo.

I feel this one on a spiritual level