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Made a jazz (chillhop) arrangement of a Christmas oldie...discovered that using a maj7(+) chord as the functioning dominant works surprisingly well!
I suppose it's a tension release scenario.... Or do you guys have any opinions/knowledge on why that works? It's so "wrong" music theory-wise... but I love the sound of it and it does work.
The melody carries it I suppose..... hmmm. Thoughts?
Thanks.
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12-17-2019 07:32 PM
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You mean where you play x54322 instead of D7 after A13? The major chord as V is acceptable, it doesn't have to be a dominant (think vanilla chords - G, C, D). The #5 note (Bb) moves to the D6, which is a bit like Bm, right?
Also, try playing an F#7 before the D6. So you'd get an F#7 - Bm sound, which would be good. (I'm not suggesting changing your tune, just try it as a sound experiment).
So you could say your x54322 was also an F# chord with a #5 in the bass. It's the same notes - which is quite interesting. That might be another reason it works.
But chiefly I think it's because the V doesn't necessarily have to be dominant and the #5 sound gives it movement.
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Originally Posted by meritonemusic
For a basic CMaj7 sound I would think
-"left hand" (harmony) as playing a basic CMaj7 shell (1-3-7)
-"right hand" (melodic structure) would be an E minor triad. I would build my melodic phrases around this melodic triad... making the E note the "melodic root" and turning the C note into a melodic tension note.
For GMaj7#5
-"Left hand" would play a GMaj7 shell (1-3-7)
-"Right hand" would be a B major triad.
So my melodic phrasing for the GMaj7#5 would actually revolve around the sound of B major. If I were to play a phrase resolving around B major and resolve it into a phrase built on the sound of E minor, it gives a linear expression of V -> i. It's a perfectly legit cadence in the melodic structure. Different from outlining 1, 3, 5, and 7. You could think of it as a melodic V -> i cadence that doesn't outline the harmony, but does respect and imply the chord progression.
If you're new to thinking this way, you can try improvising and/or writing melodies over the change using a B major triad with a C# note added resolving to an E minor triad with an A note added.
Harmonically, you can see this pretty clearly in the generic voicings
GMaj7#5
3x(444)x
CMaj7
x3(545)x
*notice the B major and E minor triads inside the voicings.
If you want to get more creative harmonically with more interesting voicings, we could try things like...
xx5642 -> x3x453
xx5647 -> x35x57
xx5879 -> xx10.987
x10x11.12.11 -> xx10.12.12.12
All of the GMaj7#5 voicings are some combination of the B triad + C# (or what I would call Bmajor/tension2) over a G root note. All of the CMaj7 voicings are just inversions of the E minor triad over a C root note. So we're hearing G -> C in the bass line...
And then we're hearing B major -> E minor in the upper/melodic structure of the harmony. Effectively following the basic rules of theory. Just in an unconventional way... higher up in the strata of the chords.
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I had to think about it a bit but Jordan's explanation makes a lot of sense. Basically, if you consider x54322 -> xx5433, x54322 is not really Dmaj7#5. It's a D aug with an implied b7, and an F#major triad in first inversion. If you think of it in terms of left and right hands on the piano, it's V->I in the left and dissonance resolving in the right.
John
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It’s a fairly common thing in harmony, in C you would have the Cdim Maj7 chord resolving to a C6 (tonic) chord...
See examples of Rodgers and Hart “Spring Is Here” or “ Bali Hai”, etc
Jazz pianist frequently use this vamp for reharm or vamping Intros or whatever.
Yours simply has a G pedal under it, which is a common variation. There are a couple of similar other tonic over V vamps we use.Last edited by rintincop; 12-18-2019 at 12:53 AM.
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nice..jeff beck flavors ..always good sounds
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I’m not sure if this is what you’re thinking of, but I’ve been working on an arrangement that involves a Vmaj7(#5) to Imaj change and I was wondering why that worked so well. I noticed that if you omit the root of the V chord, then slide the remaining three notes up a semitone you have the Imaj triad. That parallel upward chromatic motion gives a sense of resolution.
For example, Gmaj7(#5) to C could be played as:
3x444x to x3555x
Or
3644xx to 8755xx
Or add another voice to make it Gmaj7(#5 b9) to C6:
3x4444 to x35555
Using a parallel device like that too often could get old, but once in a while can spice things up as an unexpected alternative to the typical V7 to I resolution. I don’t know if this essay has any theoretic merit, but it’s the best I could come up with in the practice room.
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Jordan's piano refernece is beautiful... I am somehow also use to visalize things pianistically...
Als in C major
maj7 just works as a dissonance headed to 5 of the tonic (F# to G), as we have already aug5 going to the 3rd of the tonic (B# to E)
And 3rd stays to become maj7th of the tonic (B to B)
It is unconventional from traditional classical functionality (where dominant7th comes from) because 3rd of Dom should go to root of the tonic (B to C) which makes a parallel 5th voicing.
Our thinking application of Dom7th in jazz is often a bit rudimental I believe... so much of terminology was borrowed that often that relationships are appleied where actually they are not necessary any more.
Also I thought... In the key of C...
B maj triad can be also referenced as ii (i.e. = IV (relative) = VII maj (triton)... thinking ii - I instead of V-I... was also a practice -- that had blues references...
And Wes did it ...
But that cincerned soloing first of all..
unless you want to head down that bottomless rabbit hole
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Originally Posted by Jonah
Originally Posted by Jonah
Originally Posted by Jonah
So my go to starting point for improvising melody over this would be the triad + 1 method. B major triad + C# (tension 2) for the G major chord and E minor + A (tension 4) for the C major.
Here are some B + tension 2 inversions and voicings that you could sub over the GMaj7#5 chord...
xxx11.12.11
xxx879
xxx647
xxx422
xx444x
x646xx
x414xx
You can try voice leading a resolution from any of these to a any nearby CMaj7 voicings. Any of these can also be put over a G root note to bring the "left hand" back into the picture. For example the last voicing could be played 3414xx which is simply the B tension 2 voicing over a G note. From the standpoint of chord tones though, it gives us the R-#11-#5-3
Another fun trick is the harmonic triad + 1. Where you play the basic triad as a 3 note chord, but alter one note to be the tension and then resolve that tension note back into the proper triad note to create individual voice movement within the harmony.
For GMaj7#5 I'd use B triad + tension 2. So I'll put the tension 2 in place of the root note 2-3-5 and then let the D# and F# ring out while I resolve the C# down to B. For the CMaj7 I'd use E minor + tension 4. Let's try putting the tension 4 in place of the 5th, so we'll play 1-b3-4 and resolve the A up to the B note. So we can get some really cool movements like the ones below (the two numbers within the parenthesis both happen on the same string. play the 1st note in parenthesis with the rest of the chord, then resolve it to the 2nd note while letting the notes outside the parenthesis ring out). Try playing these over a loop for the full 'pianistic', left hand/right hand effect.
Loop
3x44xx -> x324xx
Voicings
xxx11(14-12)11 -> xxx12(10-12)12
xxx87(9-7) -> xxx98(5-7)
xxx(6-4)42 -> xxx(2-4)53
xx4(6-4)4 -> xx5(2-4)5x
etc
The simplicity of triads can be applied in so many fascinating ways to unlock all kinds of advanced sounds.
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Is there a 12 step programme for wiggle stick addicts?
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Originally Posted by jordanklemons
I am actually subscribed to your project and went through a couple of lessons crefull some time ago.
I have kind of curiousity for any methods - edpecialy that indiviual and non-conventional.
And I applied your ideas practically and I dig the pricinple and its application.
But first of all I always appreciated your playing and openess which allowed in some sense to witness that all you come to is a result your personal way and experience.
Your approach to triad as a fundumental theoretica/practical principle is great idea.
I did not have such a great perfomance experience that you did and never had those great teachers.
But I have some fundamental background in music (including classical) and actually for me it is simpler to operate things and notions that may look complex from the outside but easy for me... and on teh other hand - using too simple a principle may create complications for me)))
I like the idea of operating 'a triad' (or even a diad) +1 or + 2... but for me it is mostly a about motivic consitruction.
I think this is a good method once you want to overcome some problems that people encounter with other modern methods - when they know a lot of stuff but do not know how to apply it.
Your methid pushes a student to concentrate on every little motive of a phrase, not to play anything without really hearing its movement, its meaning - thins is great introduction.
Another advantage of your aproach is its almost universal application - you can adapt it to almost any style.
One thing that I thought about was that it does not describe music overall...
I mean mostly what you describe presumes that the student knows and heard traditional functional harmony (or other fome - building relationship system).
You operate a lot with tension/release idea but tension/release is contextual thing... so there is something that should be behind it.
For me (personaly) it is easier to think of this chord above as of dominant with particular voice-leading (as I described) than with triad conception.
Usually I do not think particulary in such small intonation or intervalic motive - (I think right away more in spacious longer lines that go through changes, it is maybe just more natural to me)
but in genral I have no problem with taking for example 3rd, aug5, maj7 or the Dom chord and release it in different ways to Tonic chord - hoewere extended or altered (with various practical applications like chordal or inverted forms on guitar and so on)...
It is easier for me to think this way than in triads.
Though in some cases I like 'layers idea' - when I connect simpler structures.. but again I need to hear the whole form...
For it is always more important to hear the whole thing - even if teh inside of it is not elaborates - than to have elaborated great minor details that do not make up a whole thing.
By the why partially melodic triad conception is there in other methods too... I saw it occasionally.
Essentially what you describe is 'superimposed triad' - you just focus more on its linear melodic application and context... is it not?
Lots of players apply supperimposed trids melodically...
I am just wodering how you see it in that context... is it related? or do you see as absolutely different perspective?
Thank you again for your time
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TL;DR ... Isn't a maj7#5 just a Dom7b13 in disguise? So Cmaj7#5 = e g# b c = E(7)b13 , let's just say the b7th is implied, or even not needed for the chord to have a strong dominant quality due to its "augmented" flavour. Or am I missing something?
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Originally Posted by princeplanet
In C
Gmaj7#5 as a sub for G7 ...
but I may be wrongLast edited by pingu; 12-20-2019 at 03:19 PM.
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I actually think we overcomplicate it..
The aug triad is there... that is more than enough for dominant quality...
Maj7th is a colour and a lead to 5th of the tonic... not common for classical but ok for jazz
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I might have missed the following observation earlier in the thread, but I noticed a relationship between scales and chords here.
Consider the change:
Gmaj7#5 C
I’ve already mentioned that if the root G is removed from the first chord, what remains is simply a B triad. So I think of this change as basically sliding that triad up a semitone, and adding the G as a root on the first chord to suggest a cycle of fifths function (even though it’s not a dominant chord).
A scale that seems to work well over the Gmaj7#5 chord is:
1 2 3 #4 #5 6 maj7 1
I don’t know the proper name for that scale, but it’s the notes of E melodic minor, starting on the third degree (G).
That G scale contains the third and fifth of the C triad (E & G), but it doesn’t include C. Since it includes notes a semitone above and below C, it invites chromaticism.
I’m pretty sure what I’ve discovered here well known to those better versed in jazz harmony and all the melodic minor tricks, but I’m kind of stumbling around trying to make sense of things in my own way.
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Most of the time I use maj7#5 or maj7#5#9 as a resolution to a minor seventh chord.
For example:
1. Dmaj7#5 - Ebm7
or
2. Bbmaj7#5#9 - Bm7
Take a look at the first example. Dmaj7#5 and Ebm7 are sharing three chord tones. Gb, Bb and Db. In other words, it’s possible to play a Bb minor triad with an augmented fifth over Dmaj7#5. D is a leading-tone to Eb.
Take a look at the second example. Bbmaj7#5#9 and Bm7 are also sharing three chord tones. D, Gb and A. In other words, it’s possible to play a D major triad or even a Dmaj7 over Bbmaj7#5#9. Bb is a leading-tone to B and Db is a leading-tone to D.Last edited by Bbmaj7#5#9; 12-20-2019 at 07:34 PM.
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Originally Posted by pingu
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Yea... V anything going to I anything implies Dominant function. If we design guidelines or rules for voicings and melodic movements etc... that's our choice. I mean, if we term something "I", we would need to redesign the harmonic functional organization... to change the results. The camouflaging or secondary organization, melodic or harmonic is what makes music interesting, fun right.
We can add modal guidelines for changing functional organization... modal functional harmony. Harmonic maj. is pretty standard approach for having a VI#5#11#9 chord that can have standard modal interchange access to with relative/parallel relationships. I mean there many common practice approaches for justification harmonically. Generally if you repeat something and then organize musically, how ever you choose... it works.
I love Jordon's playing, his approach, the triads and just his feel and his ideas in general. I dig the organization and reminds me of years ago when I was in Boston, I was having this improv discussion with this local sax player, he was really good, anyway we were getting into different harmonic organizations of organizing improv. Back in early 70's that Quartal sound was still going on, anyway.... we were getting into different approaches of expanding harmony.... taking the harmony "out", or melodic lines, solo tonal references away from the implied Tonal harmony with organization. So standard Diatonic approaches were cool, functional approaches, like how I move up and down Diatonic 3rs etc... old school... so we got into using Quartal and Quental harmonic motion as Becoming Diatonic reference. As compared to Tertian or 3rds. Like cycles
Example...play same melodic figure or lick starting from key of "C" and then use key of "F", same line with Bb, then key of "Bb", add Eb etc... The Tonal Diatonic movement became organized with 4ths or 5th.
So your momentary tonal target area... is D-, Dorian (key of C)
So go through a 4 part cylce in 4ths... Keys... C, F, Bb, Eb
the tonal targets become.... D Dorian, D Aeolian, D Phrygian, D Locrian.
Now using melodic or lick style pentatonics... D F G A B or the relative V7 of D-. G dom pentatonic, you can add "C"
Then move to Key of "F"... so D Aeo............D F G Bb C or... maybe easier to see... G- pent.
then move to Key of "Bb"..so D Phry...........D Eb G A C ... the susb9 sound was cool back then for III-, or D-b9 Pent
then move to key of "Eb"...so D Loc.............D F Ab Bb C ... from Bb dom pent... anyway we were doing this mentally fooling arouind with different harmonic organizations of controlling melodic embellishment of pentatonic licks... add some blue notes and yea was pretty hip sound with organization. So this was 45+ years ago... the Berklee and modal thing was still somewhat new... so it was really more of about just playin.
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I actually think we overcomplicate it..
The aug triad is there... that is more than enough for dominant quality...
Maj7th is a colour and a lead to 5th of the tonic... not common for classical but ok for jazz
Ya, right.
Any root with a #5 sounds TRITONES away from each other and are like magnets facing common poles.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
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Yea good points... but it's only complicated when ? I enjoy complications, really. Anyway if we want it simple, rintincop's first analysis.... Idim is vanilla simple...and probable what was going on in meritone's head. Just kind of boring, right. Oh yea and I hate dim. anything.
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Originally Posted by pingu
See that B up against that F. They are a tritone away from each other and the reason the chord wants to resolve.
Play B-7b5 x2323x see those same tritones, it's why the VII chord functions as a V chord.
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I'm more likely to use a Imaj7#5 leading to Imaj as opposed to a Vmaj7#5.
But, the Vmaj7#5, gives you the root of a dominant while the rest of the chord slides into the I from a half step below. Not that much different then playing the major chord a half step below leading to the Imaj. That kind of slide-in works from below or above.
The Imaj7#5 leading to I, basically has a #5 moving to 5. Just the one note moving a half step, but altering the 5th has a very strong effect.
Consider a ii, Imaj7#5 to Imaj7 in F. Gm7 is Bb/G (think 3x333x). Then the next chord goes to 1x222x. The half step movement on 3 strings will sound smooth, and the I in the bass tells the ear where things are headed. Then 1x221x, moves just one note.
So, in my low-theory way, I find these things by thinking about half step approaches from above or below and I pick the bass note that works with the flow of the harmony. Whole step, or minor thirds can work too. Maybe this is too simpleminded, but it gets to at least some of the same places.
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Hey Rick... I like low theory, nice term, anyway, harmony is all about root motion. The melodic resolutions, voiceleading details are just what we want to use, hear or what feels right in the moment.
Root motion is about Function, all chords (root motion with filling on top, below etc...) fall into a type of Function. The function is derived form context.... you decide, or someone else decides, what the Tonal, (or modal tonal) Reference is, Cmaj or Amin... whatever.
From that Reference there are different types of root motion.... 1/2 steps, whole etc... the notes with that root can be standard from different common practice... or whatever we choose etc... so your Low Theory approach is what Analysis is all about. Some of us just have way too much BS in our heads.
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Originally Posted by Jonah
I don't want to derail this thread which is specific to the Maj7#5 being used in the V -> I cadence... so I'm not going to give an extensive response here. I'm happy to elsewhere. But the quick summed up version is I don't see a reason to delineate between the microcosm and macrocosm when studying music. They're both important to me. It's like a chef only wanting to work on individual recipes vs full 6-course meals. They're too critically related to separate them out and only work on one vs the other. I love learning a new individual thing to cook. I also love combining multiple recipes together and having a main focal point for the meal along with a great veggie on the side and a salad. If a musician comes upon a tune where the bridge is just VMaj7#5 -> IMaj7 for 8 bars and hasn't trained their ears to be able to hear that particular sound or their mind/fingers/eyes to navigate it and have ideas for it, then no amount of thinking about the bigger picture is going to help them make sense of it in the moment. They might be able to sub in something else during their own solo and make it work, but it will yield a different result... and comping for someone else or arranging for a horn section will likely cause issues. I'm fluent in English, but I still look things up in the dictionary when I hear a new word that I'm not familiar with... learn where it came from, how it's pronounced, what it means, etc. I sometimes even practice forcing it into sentences to get used to using it if it's a word I want in my vocabulary enough. For me the micro and macro should dance together.
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation