There will never be another you: C7 as a sub for biii dim7 or Am7b5 D7

[Lark]

Hey

I am looking at There will never be another you. Great tune! However I have a question.

I've looked at different lead sheets and I understand most small differences. For example using iv minor instead of bVII etc. However I've seen several versions that use a C7 in bar 26 before it moves to the turnaround:


Abmaj7 | Abmin6 | Ebmaj7 | Amin7b5 D7 |
Ebmaj7 ......

Now I saw versions that do this (for example here There Will Never Be Another You
Abmaj7 | Abmin6 | Ebmaj7 | C7 |
Ebmaj7 ......


I understand that Amin7b5 D7 is a sub for the biii dim7 chord. But how does C7 function? It is the V/ii so you would expect it to resolve to Fmin7 or another subdominant chord like IVmaj7. However it resolves to the I?

Thanks a lot!

[A. Kingstone]

I have never seen that C7 before. It looks like the Vanilla changes link (Ralph Patt?)

I can think of no harmonic explanation and wonder if it's a typo.

[Drumbler]

It's not a typo.

Some versions of Rhythm Changes have the same change.

Rhythm Changes usually begins with a I-vim-iim-V7 but you will also see I-vi7-iim-V7.

It works. As to why it works I'm sure others more astute here can explain it better.

Cm7 = C-Eb-G-Bb

C7 = C-E-G-B

Chords that share two chord tones can be considered substitutes.

Obviously the I-vi is all in the same key but the I-vi7 is not.

However, the C Bebop Dominant scale works particularly well with the C7 chord.

[A. Kingstone]

Sure, if we are going to TWO.


We are going to ONE.

Cdim7 (Co) would make sense.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't know the theory answer, but both share a leadline, which is always a thing in jazz: C-B-Bb-C- Bb, over those 5 bars...

C7 to Ebmaj7 also has a kind of relative relationship to the common downstep modulation of C7-Cm7...?

...and then C9b13 is analogous to Bb9#11 (Bb Lydian Dom)... ?

But this is a CMiller type question probably...

[christianm77]

Yeah I did this a while back with a student. We decided the C7 was a bit shit.

[rpjazzguitar]

I usually play something like Abmaj7 Abm6 Gm7#5 (G F Bb Eb) to C7+9 (C (or G) E Bb Eb).

I don't mind a D7/C

[joe2758]

There’s like 4 dominant chords out of 12 i wouldn’t play there and c7 is one of them haha

[joe2758]

there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

melody makes it C7b9

I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing

[matt.guitarteacher]

It very well may be a mistake, but
C7 spelled as Bb7 is 9 #11 13 R
C9 as Bb7: 9 #11 13 R 3
C9b13 as Bb7: 9 #11 13 R 3 7

[A. Kingstone]

there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

melody makes it C7b9

I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing

Hey! Don't blame it on me!

[joe2758]

Hey! Don't blame it on me!

everytime i sound really bad at the workshop this summer, i’ll just be like “oh i’m sorry that’s what Alan said to do.”

[A. Kingstone]

everytime i sound really bad at the workshop this summer, i’ll just be like “oh i’m sorry that’s what Alan said to do.”

Aw man, a beautiful player like you?

[Lark]

I have never seen that C7 before. It looks like the Vanilla changes link (Ralph Patt?)

I can think of no harmonic explanation and wonder if it's a typo.

Hahah, interesting! I asked this question to Jens Larsen on YT and he also said it was probably a typo. Next I asked Matt Warnock and he said that he only has seen people play a C7 there and that some lead sheets say D7 but the has never seen that in practice.

Here is another example: Dropbox - Another You Form and Melody PDF.pdf

I also found it really strange!

there’s one way i can “justify” to my way of thinking.

Bb6 as a sub for the first Eb
then Eb6 as the beginning of the turnaround

inbetween you can play a bii dim because of the strong chromatic movement. It’s in Alan’s book.

melody makes it C7b9

I still dont like it though. i don’t think that movement is intended to have the middle chord for a whole measure...just a passive thing

Hahah wow, let me check. I am still a newb ;p.

So Bb6 as a sub for Eb since Bb - D - F - G are the 5 7 2 and 3 of Eb. So we get a Ebmaj9 sound correct? Then we want to connect this Bb6 and the upcoming Eb6. So we can play a Edim7 which can see as either: Eb7, Gb7, A7 or C7.

Thats interesting and a creative IMO :P. I have to think about it!

[joe2758]

Hahah, interesting! I asked this question to Jens Larsen on YT and he also said it was probably a typo. Next I asked Matt Warnock and he said that he only has seen people play a C7 there and that some lead sheets say D7 but the has never seen that in practice.

Here is another example: Dropbox - Another You Form and Melody PDF.pdf

I also found it really strange!



Hahah wow, let me check. I am still a newb ;p.

So Bb6 as a sub for Eb since Bb - D - F - G are the 5 7 2 and 3 of Eb. So we get a Ebmaj9 sound correct? Then we want to connect this Bb6 and the upcoming Eb6. So we can play a Edim7 which can see as either: Eb7, Gb7, A7 or C7.

Thats interesting and a creative IMO :P. I have to think about it!

exactly.

i think you’re out of newb status now— sounds like you have a good grasp of it. good job spotting a stupid chord that doesnt work lol

[KirkP]

Interesting question, and it’s prompted me to get a little deeper into this tune than I have before. Here’s an iRealPro chart of bars 25-32 that I’ve marked up a bit, adding the C7 as an option:


I think the original chords work. To my ear, the measure of Amin7b5 D7 could be thought of as Ebdim7. Either choice has a tension that pulls you back to the Eb chord in the next bar.

Now some thoughts on where the C7 might come from: Since the melody note in that measure is D, one could actually play an Emaj7 chord in that measure, but it’s kind of boring to hang on the same chord for three measures. One could also play Cmin9 there since it’s just an inversion of Cmaj7(add 6). It’s a little more interesting than hanging on the same chord for three measures, but it adds no tension or forward motion. But hey, there’s a C7 a couple of measures later so how about we borrow that chord a little early?

The 7th of C7 is E, which seems a little ugly to me, but if it’s buried in the middle of the voicing instead of the top voice it does add a little interest to that measure.

While playing around with these ideas, I also noticed E7 might be another option in measure 28. The melody note (D) is in it, and it gives a downward chromatic approach to the next chord (Eb).

The New Real Book Vol I suggests the option of F13 there. That works! F13 could also be thought of as Cmin6 with a 9 and 11 added. Hey I like how that sounds!

Another book suggests Amin11 Ab7 for bar 28, but Ab7 is just a tritone sub for D7.

[joe2758]

c7 works pulling to the ii because it’s an entirely different function

[christianm77]

Ebmaj7 (Am7b5) D7 Ebmaj7 is a really nice chord progression.

However.....

It's a little tricky to solo on for just that one bar.

When soloing, it could make sense to sub in a Gm7 sound (arpeggio) and play a II V I into it, so

Ebmaj7 | Am7b5 D7b9 | Gm D7b9 (Ab7) | Gm7 C7 |

So, is fine if you know good minor lines

Gm7 on Ebmaj7 is big and clever.

[christianm77]

good job spotting a stupid chord that doesnt work lol

There's plenty of those in iReal. Drives I mad!

[rpjazzguitar]

There Will Never Be Another You: Piano/Vocal/Guitar, Sheet (Original Sheet Music Edition): Mack Gordon, Harry Warren: 9780739088227: Amazon.com: Books

This might be the original changes. It seems stylistically like the period.

Not a modern jazzer's chords though.

It isn't written as Am7b5 to D7. But it's close. More or less.

[Drumbler]

I don't think there is any deep meaning to this chord change.

EbM7 and Cm7 are subs.

The difference between Cm7 and C7 is only one note. The difference just adds some dissonance.

However, there is some logic to it from this standpoint

EbM = Gm7 (1- 3 in Eb)

Gm7 = C7 (2-5 in F)

EbM7 = Gm7 = C7

EbM7 = C7

It also sounds good to my ears.

The C7 appears in "Real Book of Jazz - Vol. 1".

AbM7 - Fm7b5 - Bb7 - EbM7 - Gm7 - C7

[joe2758]

It also sounds good to my ears.

that's what it comes down to!

Play an Eb6 chord, then raise the root up a half step, then lower it back down. That is all that's happening, and if you like it go for it!

[christianm77]

I think what's missing a bit from here is any audio reference. What are people's favourite versions and what do those musicians play?

A great resource for getting started in the recorded history of a tune is jazzstandards.com. Here's the page for TWNAY:

Jazz Standards Songs and Instrumentals (There Will Never Be Another You)

[KirkP]

I like the Oscar Moore Quartet version. He plays it in Db. I tried to capture the changes in iReal below, highlighting the changes that seem a little unusual. I’ve left out a few more complex things the piano is doing such as a line cliche, because I think of them as still working within Oscar’s simpler changes.



Note that you could think of Cb7#11 as Gb-6(maj7) and Eb9 as Bb-6. I tend to think of the minor chord when I’m soloing even though the bass is playing the the root of the dominant a fourth above. My old fashioned ears hear it as the minor.

Here’s the Oscar Moore track I was working from.

Here’s my Oscar Moore chart transposed to Eb. Let me know if I’ve made any major errors.

[pcjazz]

Here’s my Oscar Moore chart transposed to Eb. Let me know if I’ve made any major errors.

That's how I learned it, with the Abm6 in the second bar of "B" (and also "C") and often substituting the descending tritone dominant cliche in bars 30 and 31: | G7 / Gb7 | F7 / E7 | with alts / m6 subs to taste.