There will never be another you: C7 as a sub for biii dim7 or Am7b5 D7

[JensL]

There's plenty of those in iReal. Drives I mad!

Most of the time I tell my students that "there are no correct chords for a standard, but the ones in iRealPro are usually wrong, so go listen to some recordings"

Jens

[christianm77]

As in there are no correct changes, but there are definitely wrong ones :-)

[KirkP]

As in there are no correct changes, but there are definitely wrong ones :-)

There’s also the problem of bandmates playing to different charts. Sometimes it works but it can also get ugly. So I try to analyze or play along with a variety of recordings when learning a tune to understand some of the most common variations. The goal for me is to hear when there is a clash and quickly adapt to how the lead voice hears the harmony. I’m not great at that, but I’m slowly getting better.

I’ll often search for a tune in a streaming app, set it to play all in succession, and challenge myself to work out the chords on each track in one play. Of course some interpretations are much more complex than others, so my success rate varies.

[JensL]

There’s also the problem of bandmates playing to different charts. Sometimes it works but it can also get ugly. So I try to analyze or play along with a variety of recordings when learning a tune to understand some of the most common variations. The goal for me is to hear when there is a clash and quickly adapt to how the lead voice hears the harmony. I’m not great at that, but I’m slowly getting better.

That is only a problem if you are in a band where you are not allowed to talk to each other
And with the dilemma of ear-training vs. good music on stage, I think it is is about find the right balance.

Jens

[Reg]

So the simple analysis is the C7 is just the V of the implied II-7(F-7).

So last 8...Abmaj is IV chord... SubDominant and the Eb is I... Tonic, with II V before....then Ebma7 or Tonic, then the C7 or G-7 C7 on bar before the last 4 bars or turnaround.

[Lark]

I don't think there is any deep meaning to this chord change.

EbM7 and Cm7 are subs.

The difference between Cm7 and C7 is only one note. The difference just adds some dissonance.

However, there is some logic to it from this standpoint

EbM = Gm7 (1- 3 in Eb)

Gm7 = C7 (2-5 in F)

EbM7 = Gm7 = C7

EbM7 = C7

It also sounds good to my ears.

The C7 appears in "Real Book of Jazz - Vol. 1".

AbM7 - Fm7b5 - Bb7 - EbM7 - Gm7 - C7

Whoa thats a great way to explain it IMO! Although we consider the Gm7 a ii chord in that situation instead of a iii chord which is in the key of Eb. But given that this is jazz and we can use modal interchange this is a great way to see it. Isn't this also what Pat Martino does a lot of the time? Minorizing everything and using all the minor scales (dorian, natural minor, melodic minor, phrygian etc), since he plays so fast the "clashes" don't really sound bad.

So the simple analysis is the C7 is just the V of the implied II-7(F-7).

So last 8...Abmaj is IV chord... SubDominant and the Eb is I... Tonic, with II V before....then Ebma7 or Tonic, then the C7 or G-7 C7 on bar before the last 4 bars or turnaround.

Hey Reg thanks for your reply! I'm not sure I understand you but thats probably me :P.

We talk about the last 8 bars right?

| Ab | Abm | Eb | C7 |


| Eb D7 | G7 C7 | Fm7 Bb7 | Eb |

So Ab is the IV chord in the key of Eb. Next we go to a Abm: the ivminor chord, which is quite common in jazz, a so called subdominant minor chord together with the bVII7. They create the so called backdoor cadence that goes to the I chord correct? So we go to the I, a tonic chord. Next we go to C7 which can be seen as G-7 C7 this is the V/ii or the VI7. However instead of going to the ii chord we go to the I. Why :P?

Because as Drumbler said since C7 is G-7 and G-7 is also Ebmaj when we're using modal interchange? As C7 is G-7 assumes G-7 is dorian while G-7 is Ebmaj suggests G-7 is phrygian.

Thanks a lot!

[Reg]

Hey Lark.... when your making a analysis... you need something to become the Reference.... that which all of your labeling relates to. generally the basic reference is functional harmony.... so what is the function of the chord your labeling, how does the chord work within the context... whole tune and in target shorter sections etc...

The Tune is in Eb right... the tonic is Eb, the relative Min. C- is also a Tonic etc...

By labeling the C7 or G-7 C7 as II V of Fmin. The II V becomes a II V of the implied II- chord with Subdominant function, A deceptive resolution Implies but does not actually go there..... So the analysis make a choice of calling C7 or G-7 C7 a subdominant function... with reference to The II- chord...F-. The G-7 C7 can still have Dom. function in the short context of Fmim being the Target.... but that Dominant function is in the Target world of Fmim as tonal target.... usually just labeled as II V of II. The chords are all within a SD functional area or space of the Tune. generally this becomes a secondary target functional layer of analysis.

When you start calling chords inversions or voicings with some same notes notes etc... your using a different approach for analysis.
Not wrong etc... but Analysis generally is a total concept approach.

Whether the last 8 bars are...| Ab | Abm | Eb | C7 |or l Ab13 l F-7b5 Bb7? l Ebmaj7 G-7 C7altered l

The analysis should be the same.... Tonic l Sub dom l SD l ? l I tend to call the last bar SD which sets up the turnaround.

How one chooses to play something is different from the analysis.... I mean when you actually start playing the tune.... there are millions of harmonic approaches which change most of the chords to chord patterns and subs etc.... start using MI and Blues or modal relationships....

the reason for analysis to to have common ground for relationships and their development when playing or arranging.