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  1. #201

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Which one came first, Berklee CST or post bebop jazz harmony
    The point being:
    Chord-scale theory couldn't have come first unless it was invented as a reference for a music that didn't exist yet.
    If post-bop jazz harmony came first, then people who invented and played it didn't need CST to be able to do so.

    PS. I'm not that narcissistic usually, sorry for quoting myself.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #202

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175 View Post
    Which one came first, Berklee CST or post bebop jazz harmony

    the latter

  4. #203

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    What's the theory word for not-modal harmony.
    regular?
    White belt
    My Youtube

  5. #204

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    So yes bako... that is one possibility...

    Personally my understanding and use of CST, along with everything else... is from composing and arranging...

    It's obviously not needed... but CST is derived from jazz common practice harmony from the 60's on.

    I don't see any difference between melodic and harmonic.... I can make choices and use a specific harmonic or melodic musical organization for guideline that control the function and choices of complete note collections for every note in a horizontal space...
    A tune, a section of a tune... a phrase etc... what ever I choose. CST is just another possible organization for making and organizing those choices. ( Besides maj/min functional harmony...Ionian). I use modes and modal functional guidelines, I use melodic minor and it's functional guidelines and I also use Blue Notes and their possible functional influence on any of the above.

    I mean...it's not like I don't use everything together all the time... When you play a tune or arrange etc... CST is just a collection of basic harmonic and melodic possibilities that are from existing jazz common practice.

    Most seem to understand and use subs... relative and parallel relationships.... How do you harmonically frame Blue notes.

    If you expand the concept of Blue Notes... ... ahh... Most think of improve as embellishing melodic, harmonic and rhythmic ideas etc... think of embellishing aspects of theory, or harmony etc...

    When you embellish while soloing or comping... do you have organization... or do you repeat memorized lines and chord patterns... I'm stretching it but... theory and existing functional harmony are also embellishable... just like using subs or related harmony...it's a new result by way of expanding the existing subject with organization.

    Just think of CST as possible harmonic and melodic relationships... that expand traditional chord patterns and melodic figures that use chord tones... with organization. Possible references... that imply other possible choices...that are related and from jazz common practice... beyond triad and 7th chord organization...

    Yes not all jazz... but the last 60 years.


    Back to real world... if you don't have technique... and good ears.... put your time into those aspects of playing.

  6. #205

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    It often feels like words aren't good enough to describe music. Go figure

    Wiki had three definitions of "diatonic".

    Apparently, no two people agree on exactly what "function harmony" encompasses. Apparently, we can agree on G7 going to Cmaj, but after that, it seems to get more contentious.

    Thanks to Bako for the explanation of modal progressions, as referred to in the phrase "modal progressional language into the starting reference music?". I still don't understand the phrase as a whole. It seems like a Berklee education is necessary to fully understand this sort of language.

    Somebody brought up Feynman earlier. He was an extraordinarily plain spoken man (this is intended as a high compliment). I think it stemmed partly from his personality and partly because he understood the material so well. He was a percussionist. Too bad. If he'd played a chord instrument we might have the Feynman lectures on music.


    '


  7. #206

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    Thanks to Bako for the explanation of modal progressions, as referred to in the phrase "modal progressional language into the starting reference music?". I still don't understand the phrase as a whole. It seems like a Berklee education is necessary to fully understand this sort of language.
    modal progressional language = chord sequences derived from various modes that
    portray whatever is unique to that mode.

    starting reference music = the basic song however we conceive it

    Again my apologies, sometimes I talk funny. I'm from the Bronx but they bare no blame.

  8. #207

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako View Post
    modal progressional language = chord sequences derived from various modes that
    portray whatever is unique to that mode.

    starting reference music = the basic song however we conceive it

    Again my apologies, sometimes I talk funny. I'm from the Bronx but they bare no blame.
    We're honing in on it!

    Now, can I trouble the forum for an example? How about a tune and some chords?

    Forgive me for seeming dense. I'm from Brooklyn.

  9. #208

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  10. #209

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    Joe Henderson was a Barry Harris student of course ;-)

    Not sure how he came up with that tune though lol

    I’m thinking that without a thorough exploration of the 60s music (for me) it’s hard to be specific about the development of modal playing and how it evolved into CST.

    Time to hit the Wayne tunes......

  11. #210

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    Quote Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo View Post
    I get that Inner Urge is not tonal center based. But, I'm unclear about how thinking "modal progressional language" illuminates anything. What am I missing?

  12. #211

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    Yes... Joe was classmate of Barry... not student.

    So anyway it seems that most don't get music concepts from theory etc... point of view, (reference)... so for the thick side of Brooklyn ....

    Take Blue Bossa... Kenny Dorham... but almost feels as though Joe composed.....

    So kennys version used basic functional harmony, right. Key of Cmin.(Ebmaj)..// I / IV-7 / II-7b5 V7 /... Then either modulate, call Eb-7 Ab7 a II V of IVmaj,(Abmaj7) or use Relative Diatonic 3rd relative and parallel relationships / then II-7b5 V7 I. All pretty maj/min functional organization.

    So using modal CST possibilities... I can also call C-... a Imin7 chord.... but Dorian... not aeolian. Choosing Dorian creates a different collection of Diatonic chords to work with... and when one actually play music in a jazz style.... all the relationships... subs, chord patterns etc... can also change....

    For those of you who need more... take the Cmin7 and makeup chord vamps... Chord Patterns that reflect (harmonically Imply) the C-7 as a I chord.... here are two standard vamps...

    1) // C-7 C-6 (or F7) / D-7 G7b13#9 // this chord patterns implies Cmin as tonal Target... the I chord as DORIAN (use of CST)

    2) // C-7 Abmaj7 / D-7b5 G7b9 // this chord pattern implies Cmin as tonal target... the I chord as AEOLIAN. Maj/Min Functional Harmony... Ionian with embellishments etc...

    Just a note... most don't play the chords that vanilla etc... the bVI chord usually becomes dominant.

    So take the next step... play a latin Montuno to reflect the two examples.

    So each example uses a different choice for harmonically organizing the Tonal target of Cmin.

    I get it.... you can also just change the notes etc... but that is very different... and musicians can hear and understand the difference...

    The further one expands a REFERENCE... creating extended RELATIONSJHIPS with that TONAL TARGET of Cmin... the more the MUSICAL ORGANIZATION that controls your expanding .... improvisation changes.

    The simple example using the above tune.... The basic difference in vamps is the Diatonic VI or bVI root chord... When I actually play those examples... I don't just play The VI or bVI chord... I IMPLY that chord by calling it a TONAL TARGET... and there is a big difference between implying G7 or Gb7...musically which gets back to the use of CST choices for original Cmin as I chord.
    So if I continue in the same way... changing the Harmonic organization of My I chord... I could have more different results.

    ****This is where most of you come in.... You start with pitch collections, SCALES choices that are given for Chords in different Harmonic examples.... Chord progression, chord Patterns... Tunes.

    So the scales are the results from using Modal Interchange, (Borrowing)...to create possible Functional labeling of chords.... The Scales are just horizontal versions of complete chords.

    So who cares now right... the modal application is just ONE possibility... You can expand the harmonic organization... with use of Blue Notes Melodic Minor, Harmonic Maj.... whatever one chooses and can pull it off.

    So with composition and arranging... it's pretty easy, slow stop time, etc... but when performing... you know at the speed of Jazz.... you need to have all the possibilities internalized,(memorization approach) or understand the concepts and apply LIVE etc... Obviously using both approaches works best.

    Please don't take comments personal... rp... and Brooklyn etc... We're suppose to enjoy music ... right

  13. #212

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yes... Joe was classmate of Barry... not student.
    I heard Barry in person tell a story with him teaching Joe.

  14. #213

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    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    I heard Barry in person tell a story with him teaching Joe.
    *whistles nonchalantly, grabs popcorn*

  15. #214

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    I would say that what sound a bit like tall tales from Barry tend to check out. He was a guru figure already in Detroit as a young man. It’s not always possible to understand these connections formally in the pedagogical sense, but James Jamerson credited Barry as being his teacher for instance.

  16. #215

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Yes... Joe was classmate of Barry... not student.

    So anyway it seems that most don't get music concepts from theory etc... point of view, (reference)... so for the thick side of Brooklyn ....

    Take Blue Bossa... Kenny Dorham... but almost feels as though Joe composed.....

    So kennys version used basic functional harmony, right. Key of Cmin.(Ebmaj)..// I / IV-7 / II-7b5 V7 /... Then either modulate, call Eb-7 Ab7 a II V of IVmaj,(Abmaj7) or use Relative Diatonic 3rd relative and parallel relationships / then II-7b5 V7 I. All pretty maj/min functional organization.

    So using modal CST possibilities... I can also call C-... a Imin7 chord.... but Dorian... not aeolian. Choosing Dorian creates a different collection of Diatonic chords to work with... and when one actually play music in a jazz style.... all the relationships... subs, chord patterns etc... can also change....

    For those of you who need more... take the Cmin7 and makeup chord vamps... Chord Patterns that reflect (harmonically Imply) the C-7 as a I chord.... here are two standard vamps...

    1) // C-7 C-6 (or F7) / D-7 G7b13#9 // this chord patterns implies Cmin as tonal Target... the I chord as DORIAN (use of CST)

    2) // C-7 Abmaj7 / D-7b5 G7b9 // this chord pattern implies Cmin as tonal target... the I chord as AEOLIAN. Maj/Min Functional Harmony... Ionian with embellishments etc...

    Just a note... most don't play the chords that vanilla etc... the bVI chord usually becomes dominant.

    So take the next step... play a latin Montuno to reflect the two examples.

    So each example uses a different choice for harmonically organizing the Tonal target of Cmin.

    I get it.... you can also just change the notes etc... but that is very different... and musicians can hear and understand the difference...

    The further one expands a REFERENCE... creating extended RELATIONSJHIPS with that TONAL TARGET of Cmin... the more the MUSICAL ORGANIZATION that controls your expanding .... improvisation changes.

    The simple example using the above tune.... The basic difference in vamps is the Diatonic VI or bVI root chord... When I actually play those examples... I don't just play The VI or bVI chord... I IMPLY that chord by calling it a TONAL TARGET... and there is a big difference between implying G7 or Gb7...musically which gets back to the use of CST choices for original Cmin as I chord.
    So if I continue in the same way... changing the Harmonic organization of My I chord... I could have more different results.

    ****This is where most of you come in.... You start with pitch collections, SCALES choices that are given for Chords in different Harmonic examples.... Chord progression, chord Patterns... Tunes.

    So the scales are the results from using Modal Interchange, (Borrowing)...to create possible Functional labeling of chords.... The Scales are just horizontal versions of complete chords.

    So who cares now right... the modal application is just ONE possibility... You can expand the harmonic organization... with use of Blue Notes Melodic Minor, Harmonic Maj.... whatever one chooses and can pull it off.

    So with composition and arranging... it's pretty easy, slow stop time, etc... but when performing... you know at the speed of Jazz.... you need to have all the possibilities internalized,(memorization approach) or understand the concepts and apply LIVE etc... Obviously using both approaches works best.

    Please don't take comments personal... rp... and Brooklyn etc... We're suppose to enjoy music ... right
    I appreciate the explanation. The example made it much clearer. Still some technical language I'd need examples for, but better.

    The way I learned this sort of thing, or something close to it, and just dealing with major scale harmony for the moment, is that, per Warren Nunes, Cm is either a I type or a II type. I already posted on what he meant by that.

    It's a I type in the key of Eb, which makes it interchangeable with Ebmaj7 Gm7 and Bbmaj7#11.

    Because in Warren's system vim is either I or II type, it could also be considered interchangeable with Fm7 and Abmaj7. The issue is mainly, do you want an A or an Ab?

    It's a II type in Bb, where it's interchangeable with Ebmaj7 and Gm7.

    It is also a I type in Ab, making it interchangeable with Abmaj7, Ebmaj7 and Fm7.

    It can also emerge from MM or HM minor harmony and other places. In MM harmony it would be interchangeable with every chord generated, for example, by the C MM scale, per Mark Levine's theory of no avoid note in MM. So, Dsusb9, Ebmaj7#5 etc.

    Which gets a little complicated. Not that complicated is bad. If you can get all that in your mind and under your fingers, that's great. We've all heard Reg play. But, Andres Varady sounds great and knows none of this, except if he knows it by sound.

    What can simplify it, perhaps, it is the usual thing about minor chords, which is they're all the same except for how they handle the b2, 6s and 7s. So, in Blue Bossa the root is C. Do you want to hear a Db? And, among Ab A Bb and B, which do you want?

    It strikes me that Reg's approach is better organized than just thinking about all the individual note choices. Perhaps that might tend to make a solo more cohesive if you had practiced things the way his system seems to imply. OTOH, you'd also have to be careful that it's all internalized by sound or it could be constricting.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-09-2019 at 04:18 PM.

  17. #216

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    Also Barry is 8 years older than Joe, I am not sure how they would be classmates.

    By the way Barry mentions giving lessons to Joe in this interview:

    Barry Harris: Teacher Man - JazzTimes

  18. #217

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    yea... barry always seem to be his way or the highway. I've met and performed with Joe henderson, know many old working jazz musicians who have old dirt etc... but Henderson' arranging and compostions... tend to be very different from BH... at least after his bebop days.

    I obviously don't like the BH approach or his teaching style and concepts... I do respect and appreciate his contributions... it's just a personal choice... I do like Joe Henderson's approach. Joe was also a pianist... .. remember the Joe Henderson and Jonny Griffin gigs... late 80's...

  19. #218

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    This thread deserves this.

    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 03-10-2019 at 08:21 PM.

  20. #219

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    Turn out the lights...ZZZZZZZZZZZ

  21. #220

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    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  22. #221

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    I understand that some people like that this thread is dying but just wanted to share this blogpost I came across:

    Where Jazz Theory Got It Wrong – Steve Treseler

    And this discussion is also pretty interesting:
    So I posted this as a comment to another... - Darcy James Argue | Facebook

  23. #222

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    There's nothing wrong with CST. When I heard people knocking it constantly I wondered what they were on about. Then I read an article or two and realised that CST wasn't the culprit, it was the way those people were thinking that was wrong.

    They were using some sort of blueprint to choose notes with and generally doing it chord by chord, like a jigsaw. So Dm7-G7-CM7 must be, and can only be, the usual dorian-mixolydian-ionian. Except that, over each of those chords, CST actually prescribes a possible number of scales/modes and other means of improvisation. So it's no wonder they were lost.

    The educated musical mind can employ what notes it likes over chords to produce the effects it wants. The inexperienced mind needs to be told what to do and copies without insight. It's not the fault of CST. Outcomes depend on the mindset of the pupil, and that depends on knowledge and experience. If CST is to be taught, that should be borne in mind. So a lot depends on the instructor.

    CST gives you the ingredients but not the recipe. It's not trying, or supposed, to provide any recipes. How the ingredients are mixed and cooked together determines the dish, not the ingredients by themselves.

    Also, with experience, any good cook can happily add, subtract or alter the ingredients once they know what they're doing. Musical improvisation is not a thing set in stone. When CST becomes a fundamentalist ideology then one has misunderstood its purpose entirely.
    Excellent

  24. #223

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    Where Jazz Theory Got It Wrong – Steve Treseler

    Is he trying to sell his book? He takes great pains to point out how the usual scales are just a 'jumble' but doesn't give the alternative. No respect for that.

    In any case, only naive beginners (or only naive non-beginners!) would actually play it like that. He's presenting a deceptive premise, presumably to sell his book. $35 with price reduction!

    Even less respect for that.

  25. #224

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop View Post
    Excellent
    Thank you. That was #2!

  26. #225

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    The way Barry Harris has you play scales descending from the 7th sounds pretty melodic to me. And he lets 2 scales cover the 4 chords of I VI ii V, then add the extra bebop passing tone when needed, play in good time, do a bit of arpeggios that resolve into the next chord (Burt Lignon) , add some triplet turns (Barry), target some 3rds and 7ths, mess it up (Burt Lignon) , add in some blues notes (Oscar), alternate between highly chromatic phrases and sparse chord tone melodies (per Chick Corea) , etc .... A scale really is just the chord tones with the relative passing tones filled in.

    ||: C A7 | D-7 G7 :||
    How to play scales in a way to sound melodic (per Barry)
    Practice descending from the 7th of a C major scale to the tonic for bar 1
    and practice descending from the 7th of a G7 scale to its root for bar 2

  27. #226

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    Absolutely, it's not about trying to follow some rigid set of rules.

    I mean, at the very beginning of, say, maths we have to learn our numbers. Then maybe the multiplication tables, etc etc. All that's pretty mechanical, like learning to write and spell words. There's nothing wrong with learning the basics in a structured way; it helps it stick.

    But after that the magic starts... Creativity and technique are different. Technique without creativity is rather pointless. And one never stops learning, of course.