How much music theory do I need before getting into jazz?

[AlexMalmis]

Perfect, OK the next step is to start applying this to some chord symbols... For instance, if we have

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 (the infamous II-V-I - more on that later)

So, we can tab out the two possible voicings of each chord.

Do you mean both the one with root on e string and the one with root on a string. Should I do both of these kan these 3 chords?

[christianm77]

Do you mean both the one with root on e string and the one with root on a string. Should I do both of these kan these 3 chords?

Yes please, it's for the next (and final) step....

[AlexMalmis]

Perfect, OK the next step is to start applying this to some chord symbols... For instance, if we have

Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 (the infamous II-V-I - more on that later)

So, we can tab out the two possible voicings of each chord.

Okay...
Dm7 x 5 3 5 x x and 10 x 10 10 x x
G7 x 10 11 10 x x and 3 x 3 2 x x
Cmaj7 x 3 2 4 x x and 8 x 9 9 x x
.

[christianm77]

Okay...
Dm7 x 5 3 5 x x and 10 x 10 10 x x
G7 x 10 11 10 x x and 3 x 3 2 x x
Cmaj7 x 3 2 4 x x and 8 x 9 9 x x
.

OK, we are a bit confused about the G7, should be

x 10 9 10 x x and 3 x 3 4 x x - think you might have got the digits mixed up?

The other four are great.

So, here's the thing. We want to connect the chords logically together. We don't want to play:

10 x 10 10 x x
3 x 3 4 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Because not only is that hard to play, but the chords sound unconnected. If we play

10 x 10 10 x x
x 10 9 10 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Not only is progression easier to play, but it sounds better too. Take a look at the notes on strings 3 and 4:

10 10
9 10
9 9

Right? All moving by semitones in this case. Real smooth. This is called voice leading.

OK.... So, this gets me to the end of the lesson (which is the same material as my first jazz lesson from the great Dave Cliff)

So, this is the takeaway assignment - can you do this for the whole of the song Autumn Leaves, bearing in mind this voice leading idea:

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Same thing twice right?

And for extra points:

Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |
Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | % |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | Em7b5 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

That's a lot written down, but bear in mind there are basically seven chords, and one extra (Em7b5) that gets used once, so you don't need to tab them every single time.

If so, well done!

After that, the important bit - get used to playing them on your guitar.

[AlexMalmis]

Y

OK, we are a bit confused about the G7, should be

x 10 9 10 x x and 3 x 3 4 x x - think you might have got the digits mixed up?

The other four are great.

So, here's the thing. We want to connect the chords logically together. We don't want to play:

10 x 10 10 x x
3 x 3 4 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Because not only is that hard to play, but the chords sound unconnected. If we play

10 x 10 10 x x
x 10 9 10 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Not only is progression easier to play, but it sounds better too. Take a look at the notes on strings 3 and 4:

10 10
9 10
9 9

Right? All moving by semitones in this case. Real smooth. This is called voice leading.

OK.... So, this gets me to the end of the lesson (which is the same material as my first jazz lesson from the great Dave Cliff)

Can you do this for the whole of the song Autumn Leaves, bearing in mind this voice leading idea:

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |
Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | % |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | Em7b5 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

That's a lot written down, but bear in mind there are basically four chords, and one extra (Em7b5) that gets used once, so you don't need to tab them every single time.

If so, well done!

After that, the important bit - get used to playing them on your guitar.

Yeah I typer the dominant 7th wrong but I know how it should be. Only a Quick question why do we play 10 x 10 10 x x
x 10 9 10 x x
8 x 9 9 x x and not
x 5 3 5 x x
3 x 3 4 x x
x 3 2 4 x x?
or does it not matter?
now I understand which fingerings I should use for autumn leaves and why they are correct. Also the chords you listed for autumn leaves are not the same as in the real book. Did you do another key? In the real book it starts am7, d7 them gmaj7... I cant play guitar more this day it is too late but tomorrow I Will try to play autumn leaves using the stuff I have learnt.

[christianm77]

Y
Yeah I typer the dominant 7th wrong but I know how it should be. Only a Quick question why do we play 10 x 10 10 x x
x 10 9 10 x x
8 x 9 9 x x and not
x 5 3 5 x x
3 x 3 4 x x
x 3 2 4 x x?
or does it not matter?
now I understand which fingerings I should use for autumn leaves and why they are correct. Also the chords you listed for autumn leaves are not the same as in the real book. Did you do another key? In the real book it starts am7, d7 them gmaj7... I cant play guitar more this day it is too late but tomorrow I Will try to play autumn leaves using the stuff I have learnt.

Both are perfectly valid ways of doing, and both have good voice leading... Nice one!

Just use whatever fingerings feel natural. When we start adding notes you'll need to be flexible in your fingerings

Yes, it's a different key. The key I gave (Gm) is the most common one for most musicians I have played and that's they Dave Cliff taught it to me in.

The Real Book key (Em) is not very often played, at least where I am. One of the many reasons why the Real Book is to be taken with a grain of salt.

There are some other differences as well. My changes are very straight - very vanilla, partly because I wanted to keep them simple for now, but also because I want to give the simplest possible version of the changes so that you can compare to more complex ones and learn something about chord subs....

[AlexMalmis]

Both are perfectly valid ways of doing, and both have good voice leading... Nice one!

Just use whatever fingerings feel natural. When we start adding notes you'll need to be flexible in your fingerings

Yes, it's a different key. The key I gave (Gm) is the most common one for most musicians I have played and that's they Dave Cliff taught it to me in.

The Real Book key (Em) is not very often played, at least where I am. One of the many reasons why the Real Book is to be taken with a grain of salt.

There are some other differences as well. My changes are very straight - very vanilla, partly because I wanted to keep them simple for now, but also because I want to give the simplest possible version of the changes so that you can compare to more complex ones and learn something about chord subs....

So you want me to practice these chords without the fifth for the moment?

[christianm77]

So you want me to practice these chords without the fifth for the moment?

Yes please.

Actually quite a lot of the time, I actually use these little voicings just like that. They are surprisingly complete sounding for three note shapes.

But there's cool stuff we can do with them too :-)

[AlexMalmis]

Yes please.

Actually quite a lot of the time, I actually use these little voicings just like that. They are surprisingly complete sounding for three note shapes.

But there's cool stuff we can do with them too :-)

If I would do a d7 I would do either x545xx or 10x109xx. Joe2758 Said I should do 5x453x for d7... how is that a d7? Is the root on the b string in that case? I mean what is the note order?
in this case x545xxx it is root, third and seventh and in 10x109xx it is root seventh and third. What is the order in this way 5x453? If you play am7 then d7 should you play 5x55xx and 5x453x or 5x55xx and x545xx?

[joe2758]

yeah ignore me, i'm not a teacher. Was just trying to get him past cowboy chords

[matt.guitarteacher]

These shells are the way to go in my opinion. Easy enough in fact to be able to leave behind bar chords/power cords etc., even as a quick workaround.

Actually, Willie Thomas's rhythm guitar lessons or whatever they're called at jazz everyone.com are pretty good and are based on this traditional approach. He worked with high schools and middle schools for years . It's kind of ironic. He's not a guitarist himself , but you begin with "shells on a blues" , which ends up being just two notes which simply move up and down one fret for I7 IV7 V7.

Succeeding lessons introduce ninths, thirteenths , other chord types etc. It's a pretty solid approach for rapidly ramping up survival shops for comping school jazz band.

[joe2758]

i'm SORRY okay?! lol

[AlexMalmis]

Yes please.

Actually quite a lot of the time, I actually use these little voicings just like that. They are surprisingly complete sounding for three note shapes.

But there's cool stuff we can do with them too :-)

after Am7, D7, Gmaj7, CMaj7 and F#Minorflatfive in autumn leaves there is B7 and E minor how should I play them? The normal way I play those chords is like this: B7 is x21202 and E minor is 02200x is these ways wrong or something? Should I play b7 like x212xx?

[AlexMalmis]

just follow the instructions chris has given you. you have learned two voicings for B7 and two voicings for Em7. use them.

B7 7x78xx or x212xx, Em x757xx or 12x1212xx. the second Em7 in fret 12 is awkward so use x757xx. or even better, follow the instructions and do the tune in Bb instead of G.

okay. well the chord was em not em7 but sure I will play it in gm instead of em.

[Tal_175]

Shells are great because as Garry Burton said in a video posted on another thread recently, the job of the comping instrument is not to play the harmony, that's the soloists job. The job of the comper is to rhythmically hold things together and help the band swing. Paraphrasing.
So the notes in the chords are secondary to judicious rhythmic choices executed with good time. Of course as long as notes don't clash.

[christianm77]

Which they generally don't in shell voicings because they are super simple.

Here's a point - the melody of Autumn Leaves actually clashes with Am7b5 D7b9 if you let those chords ring.... I didn't notice that for years! (embarassed)

Anyway glad to hear Burton agrees with my take on comping, because, well, he is an absolute master of comping himself, so I'm on the right track at least.

[christianm77]

Cheers djg, not been near a computer, thanks for the input.

[AlexMalmis]

just keep it simple and treat it as Em7 for a few weeks. chris will be the first to tell you that it's actually Em6, or in your new key: Gm6 = 3x23xx

I Will just play it in the key that Chris gave me.

[AlexMalmis]

Which they generally don't in shell voicings because they are super simple.

Here's a point - the melody of Autumn Leaves actually clashes with Am7b5 D7b9 if you let those chords ring.... I didn't notice that for years! (embarassed)

Anyway glad to hear Burton agrees with my take on comping, because, well, he is an absolute master of comping himself, so I'm on the right track at least.

I Will send a video of me playing the chords of Autumn Leaves in the key you sent when I am familiar enough with the chord shapes.

[AlexMalmis]

I Made some notes..
CMajor7


8 x 9 9 (8) x - note order root, 7th, 3rd, (5th)
x 3 2 4 x x - note order: root, 3rd, 7^th


Seventh 1 3 5 b7
Minor Seventh 1 b3 5 b7
Major Seventh 1 3 5 7

[Drumbler]

Watch Fareed Haque's comping videos.

"Play the 3rd and the 7th.
Those two notes define the chord.
Leave the roots and fifths to the bass player.
Leave the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths to the keyboard player and or soloist.
Stay out of everybody's way. Less is more."

[AlexMalmis]

Watch Fareed Haque's comping videos.

"Play the 3rd and the 7th. Those two notes define the chord.Leave the roots and fifths to the bass player.Leave the 9ths, 11ths and 13ths to the keyboard player and or soloist.Stay out of everybody's way. Less is more.?"

Well What if I play aloen in my home as I do. I cant just leave everything out to non existing Players.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well What if I play aloen in my home as I do. I cant just leave everything out to non existing Players.

Learn the versions with the roots if you like... with the understanding that they're mostly just for you. The urge to have them present is almost irresistible in the beginning. They may help with ear training the root movements if you're brand new. You can finger them and simply not pick with RH or mute them out when you actually play. Learn to only play them on beat one or only on the actual chord change, until you can "hear them" regardless.

Long term, true rootless voicings may give you more flexibility with adding 9ths or 13ths etc, and they may be mostly what you actually PLAY. A lot of players finger roots by default and simply mute or don't play them with RH though.

[AlexMalmis]

This
8x88xx
X878xx
6x77xx
x657xx
5x55xx
x545xx
3x33xx
is correct for Cm7, F7, Bbmaj7, Ebmaj7, Am7b5, D7 and Gm7 right?

[AlexMalmis]

OK, we are a bit confused about the G7, should be

x 10 9 10 x x and 3 x 3 4 x x - think you might have got the digits mixed up?

The other four are great.

So, here's the thing. We want to connect the chords logically together. We don't want to play:

10 x 10 10 x x
3 x 3 4 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Because not only is that hard to play, but the chords sound unconnected. If we play

10 x 10 10 x x
x 10 9 10 x x
8 x 9 9 x x

Not only is progression easier to play, but it sounds better too. Take a look at the notes on strings 3 and 4:

10 10
9 10
9 9

Right? All moving by semitones in this case. Real smooth. This is called voice leading.

OK.... So, this gets me to the end of the lesson (which is the same material as my first jazz lesson from the great Dave Cliff)

So, this is the takeaway assignment - can you do this for the whole of the song Autumn Leaves, bearing in mind this voice leading idea:

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | Ebmaj7 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

Same thing twice right?

And for extra points:

Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |
Cm7 | F7 | Bbmaj7 | % |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | Em7b5 |
Am7b5 | D7 | Gm7 | % |

That's a lot written down, but bear in mind there are basically seven chords, and one extra (Em7b5) that gets used once, so you don't need to tab them every single time.

If so, well done!

After that, the important bit - get used to playing them on your guitar.

What does the % mean and what do you mean by that part for extra points? Should I play that part after the first part to get a thumb up?