b7 over a major chord, which scale?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

[lawson-stone]

Which is surprising as it's American! It was written in the 20's but became a WW2 song with quite a history re. the Nazis. Worth reading.

Bye Bye Blackbird - Wikipedia

Also good solo!

Thanks. I am not kidding about just banging that one out. The chord progression didn't look too hard so I thought I'd wing it. I guess it is evident from the solo that yes, that's what I did!

I didn't know the story on that tune. When I think "Blackbird" I think 'SR71 Spy Plane"

[ragman1]

I didn't know the story on that tune.

It was, and is, very popular over here. They sing it in care homes a lot

[rpjazzguitar]

Here's my shot at it.

MP3 Player SoundClick

Not perfect, but nothing the guy who wrote ProTools couldn't fix.

[WillMbCdn5]

WOW!! never heard this before - the second version with McCoy is amazing- starts so simple and slips into the sublime and beyond. Thanks for the heads up

Will

[christianm77]

I only posted for discussion sake; not an endorsement. Though i rather imagine David Baker knows a little about bebop.

The fact that David Baker literally wrote the book on bebop does not stop from disagreeing with him on the internet.

But airmail is not, imo, a bop head.

[christianm77]

History is rarely as neat as it’s made out.

Bakers perspective seems to be to put some of KC thing into bop, Tickle Toe etc, which is not ahistorical, because of course Bird was from KC. OTOH I find that music to be different in some fundamental ways.

The main difference is rhythmic to my ears, acutely in the rhythm section, but also structurally .

[lawson-stone]

The fact that David Baker literally wrote the book on bebop does not stop from disagreeing with him on the internet.

But airmail is not, imo, a bop head.

You are absolutely right, of course. Especially if the book had been a commercial failure panned by anybody who could play a note of bebop. It has gotten a pretty good reception, though, and so it's worth weighing his observations, gleaning through them for whatever is useful. No blind acceptance, though, of anyone.

I agree also that Airmail Special isn't on my list of bebop heads, though it's a ripping good tune and solo.

[lawson-stone]

History is rarely as neat as it’s made out.

Bakers perspective seems to be to put some of KC thing into bop, Tickle Toe etc, which is not ahistorical, because of course Bird was from KC. OTOH I find that music to be different in some fundamental ways.

The main difference is rhythmic to my ears, acutely in the rhythm section, but also structurally .

What would you put in a list of defining features of bebop? You have a perspective I always find stimulating so this isn't bait or a troll. I have the amazing ability to play a Jimmy Raney solo note-for-note correctly and STILL don't really sound like a bebop player when I do it. So seems to me feel and articulation must be a factor, not just notes.

[christianm77]

What would you put in a list of defining features of bebop? You have a perspective I always find stimulating so this isn't bait or a troll. I have the amazing ability to play a Jimmy Raney solo note-for-note correctly and STILL don't really sound like a bebop player when I do it. So seems to me feel and articulation must be a factor, not just notes.

Well I’ll stick up my thoughts when I have a moment.....

[John A.]

History is rarely as neat as it’s made out.

Bakers perspective seems to be to put some of KC thing into bop, Tickle Toe etc, which is not ahistorical, because of course Bird was from KC. OTOH I find that music to be different in some fundamental ways.

The main difference is rhythmic to my ears, acutely in the rhythm section, but also structurally .

When you listen in retrospect (retroaud?), sure, the recordings we have are not bebop recordings. But the beboppers themselves saw Charlie Christian as a break from the past and as one of the seeds of what they were doing. Bebop was born in after-hours jams in Harlem populated by guys in big bands. Christian was one of those guys and is part of their transition from swing to bop. The sense of him as a proto-bopper comes from that, and something in the music that's more inchoate than some list of bop attributes. I don't really get why people argue about this.

John

[lawson-stone]

When you listen in retrospect (retroaud?), sure, the recordings we have are not bebop recordings. But the beboppers themselves saw Charlie Christian as a break from the past and as one of the seeds of what they were doing. Bebop was born in after-hours jams in Harlem populated by guys in big bands. Christian was one of those guys and is part of their transition from swing to bop. The sense of him as a proto-bopper comes from that, and something in the music that's more inchoate than some list of bop attributes. I don't really get why people argue about this.

John

People "argue" about this because for a lot of us, it's just plain fun pondering all the possibilities and probabilities and bouncing them off others with similar interests. I'm a textual scholar and historian by trade, and I'm naturally interested in what came from where, who done it, and why. Intellectual and cultural history pose especially interesting and enjoyable conundrums and finding other folks with the same enjoyment of sharpening viewpoints against each other is a delight.

It's partly just a matter of temperament.

[John A.]

People "argue" about this because for a lot of us, it's just plain fun pondering all the possibilities and probabilities and bouncing them off others with similar interests. I'm a textual scholar and historian by trade, and I'm naturally interested in what came from where, who done it, and why. Intellectual and cultural history pose especially interesting and enjoyable conundrums and finding other folks with the same enjoyment of sharpening viewpoints against each other is a delight.

It's partly just a matter of temperament.

By "people" I meant Christian ;-) Others are free to argue in the fullest sense. He's on probation.

John

[christianm77]

Right I done this on a different thread in 'Theory' so as not to completely derail this one.

[christianm77]

When you listen in retrospect (retroaud?), sure, the recordings we have are not bebop recordings. But the beboppers themselves saw Charlie Christian as a break from the past and as one of the seeds of what they were doing. Bebop was born in after-hours jams in Harlem populated by guys in big bands. Christian was one of those guys and is part of their transition from swing to bop. The sense of him as a proto-bopper comes from that, and something in the music that's more inchoate than some list of bop attributes. I don't really get why people argue about this.

John

I've put my reply to this in the other thread. Keeping it clean :-)

[znerken]

I hope znerken notices the Eb over the FM7!

awful :-)

I loved it, but you have to explain what you were thinking!!!! Eb over Fmaj, that’s like playing extended notes on the Fmaj, or?

Bb D F A is 11-13-R-3 of Fmaj7, which is not awful!


Or did you mean just the note Bb? Which is 11, and not awful either?

[Durban]

Dont get too bogged down about scales.

b7 over a Maj chord is quite normal, Wes and everyone since did/do a lot, its pretty much like

a 4th ie F on CMaj7 chord linger too long not tasteful but totally and usable, the b7 is even more friendly, a Blue Note.

Remember contextual ie on some tunes it wont sound as effective/or good.

I cannot remember of where Wes Benson does it but its a LOT, Play it you will hear it

[lawson-stone]

Lawson -

To be honest, I think it's the context. Pre-empting the next chord usually works fine. The ear accepts it because the sounds resolve at the next chord. On this occasion I thought it clashed, for some reason.

I'm sure, had the next chord been a Bb, it would have worked fine since the dominant sound had already been introduced. But it wasn't, it was an F7 so probably pre-emption wasn't necessary. Also, even the F7 proper didn't go to the Bb, it went to an Am7b5... so my ear said there was a bit of strangeness going on.

But I left it. As I said to znerken, I didn't think the Eb over the F in his example was wrong because it was so quick, just a passing bebop line. But he obviously thought it was odd, hence the thread.

That wasn’t me. I liked the solo and didn’t give the theoretical matter any thought at all.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[ragman1]

I loved it, but you have to explain what you were thinking!!!! Eb over Fmaj, that’s like playing extended notes on the Fmaj, or?

Bb D F A is 11-13-R-3 of Fmaj7, which is not awful!


Or did you mean just the note Bb? Which is 11, and not awful either?

Sorry, I thought you were Lawson-Stone earlier on. Beg pardon!

Right, let me explain it. It's very simple, I was just making reference to the next chord coming, which was F7. I just popped in a note that heralded the sound of the following chord so that there was a flow. It's a simple technique and I didn't think about it consciously.

Then, much later, I realised that I'd played a b7 over a major chord (the thread subject). But, of course, there's a big difference between me playing that note and your Eb as part of a fast-moving bebop line.

Actually, I don't think mine worked very well, but that's another story :-)