b7 over a major chord, which scale?

[znerken]

If you're referring to the clip you posted, the soloing is all over the place time-wise, not consistently late/offset. It's strange, because there are good ideas and a good sense of phrasing, so the player seems to know what he's doing. In general, it's difficult to stay completely locked with a backing track or metronome, so I'd leave it at that. The content of what he's playing is worth checking out.

You want to get a sense of how to play bluesisms over this tune, but with better execution? Here ya go:

John

Well explained. Thanks.

The content of what he's playing is worth checking out.

Great, makes me feel like I am not wasting time.

[znerken]

This is a little fun. I immediately recognised several pieces of these bars from Kenny Burell's solo. He plays the exact same triplet for example.




Edit:

Ye, this also continues in the solo. There's a lot of stuff from Burell here. Cool

[znerken]

Also just spotted this:

[ragman1]

znerken -

Hey, thanks! I hadn't checked back since yesterday. Latency issues are usually caused by not having a powerful enough computer. Which means money or lack of it.

I'm going to suggest he records a different way. I still think he's not a bad player, especially if he wrote that solo.

I also think you're doing the right thing. If you've done classical for ten years then you know something; you're not a beginner. Probably you're looking for a simple way into the bebop language. So you want something that's clearly bebop, not too clever or too fast, etc etc.

A lot of online bebop stuff is simply not comprehensive enough (I'm being polite). I think that's why you went for this. As you said, one can ignore timing issues and simply use the notes to get the idea.

By the way, is there a tab for this? Not a score, a guitar tab showing the fingering. Classical stuff has a different way of notating it on the music but I don't see that. You definitely need to know the position/strings. One can work them out oneself eventually but that's a very long way round and it's extremely easy to overlook simpler ways of doing things.

[znerken]

znerken -

Hey, thanks! I hadn't checked back since yesterday. Latency issues are usually caused by not having a powerful enough computer. Which means money or lack of it.

I'm going to suggest he records a different way. I still think he's not a bad player, especially if he wrote that solo.

I also think you're doing the right thing. If you've done classical for ten years then you know something; you're not a beginner. Probably you're looking for a simple way into the bebop language. So you want something that's clearly bebop, not too clever or too fast, etc etc.

A lot of online bebop stuff is simply not comprehensive enough (I'm being polite). I think that's why you went for this. As you said, one can ignore timing issues and simply use the notes to get the idea.

By the way, is there a tab for this? Not a score, a guitar tab showing the fingering. Classical stuff has a different way of notating it on the music but I don't see that. You definitely need to know the position/strings. One can work them out oneself eventually but that's a very long way round and it's extremely easy to overlook simpler ways of doing things.

Hmm, where did you get the impression I did classical for ten years? Thanks though
I actually haven't done classical for ten years, but I have studied a little with a classical teacher, mostly focused on finger style though. I studied a lot of Michael Hedges stuff a while back.

Anyway, I have been working with Bye Bye blackbird for over a month, and everything else I have done(including transcribing Burell) has mostly been between fret 4-8. For example practicing all the arpeggios etc. So I just figure out the most easily way to play it within there, as I immediately recognise a lot of the stuff and can connect them to arpeggios.

I have a jazz teacher by the way, he studied with Jim Hall, so that's nice

[christianm77]

I've been working with the tab all week, so I basically started before I posted this thread. And as I've said before, if there was a solo I liked from a very "famous" bebop player on this particular standard, I would've jumped on that. However, there is not too many recordings of this standard... So, I looked elsewhere.

Some people have already decided what the other person is thinking, I was never like that of course
(said with humor, not being rude!)

Heya, if I was teaching you - which I’m not - I’d have my own approach of course.

I’m sure this solo will help.... anything you can do will help.... just study the music.... get your ears together, learn to play melodies as well as solos. Can’t go wrong....

[znerken]

Heya, if I was teaching you which I’m not I’d have my own approach of course. I’ll leave you to do what you think is best, which is exactly what I did although I think a teacher would have got me there a bit quicker I also don’t think I’d have had as much fun.

Fun is important :-) my teacher always have very clear and few tasks for me, and I put in a lot of time, so I also practice Modern Method etc. I also try to learn vocabulary. I hope the next standard he chooses is in the Omnibook!

[christianm77]

Rewrote my comment, sorry a bit rude didn’t know you’d answer so fast.

[ragman1]

I don't think it works that way: delaying each and every note by the same amount of milliseconds. It's more about playing "elastic" time for lack of a better term - delaying some notes, even to the extreme, playing others right on time and some a tad before the beat....

I know. It was just a bit of fun showing that being out of sync by even a tiny amount can seriously throw the whole thing.

Mind you, strangely, what they generally call 'playing behind the beat' actually means playing in front of it. I moved the lead track backwards and it completely messes it up.

However, I also tried moving it forwards and that's quite different. It gives the lead impetus, which is the point of it. You actually have to move it forwards by a lot to make it sound bad. Which is very interesting.

So it's okay to rush a bit but no good dragging your feet

[znerken]

Rewrote my comment, sorry a bit rude didn’t know you’d answer so fast.

No worries mate. You’ve always been helpful, so I didn’t read it as rude.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I have a jazz teacher by the way, he studied with Jim Hall, so that's nice

Damn! He must have some transcriptions, so ask about that.

[ragman1]

Hmm, where did you get the impression I did classical for ten years?

Ah, a mistake. I checked out someone's posts the other day (not being nosy, it helps to see where they're coming from musically etc) and I thought it was you... obviously not :-)

Sorry, my mistake. God knows who it was then!

[John A.]

I agree that many blue notes are, technically, outside notes but not all outside notes are necessarily blue notes... if you see what I mean.

Yes.


John

[lawson-stone]

Okay. Nice answer.

So to take it forward. What makes his solo boppy then? Besides the bebop scale :-)

David Baker, a generally respected jazz educator, compiled a list of features of bebop that might be helpful. Of course, each item could be debated, disputed, denied, defended, but this list captures a lot of the total phenomenon of bebop:

Bebop Characteristics compiled by david baker
1. Complex harmonic ideas
2. Longer melodic phrases using odd intervals built on the extension of chords (9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc.).
3. Harmony gained equal footing with melody and rhythm (western influence).
4. A sound instrumental technique was mandatory.
5. A good ear and a quick mind were indispensable.
6. Eighth notes and sixteenth notes became the basic units of time.
7. Horns aimed for clean, piano-like execution.
8. Players followed the trend toward the vibrato-less sound (reducing the latitude and flexibility of sound production is another western concept). As a practical consideration, virtuosity demands an unencumbered sound.
9. The emphasis was more on content than on sound.
10. Complex chords provided soloists with a broader harmonic base; making possible a greater variety of note choices and a higher incidence of chromaticism.
11. Chords served as the improvisational referential rather than the melody.
12. Hot improvisation (fast, intense, impassioned) was the rule.
13. Collective improvisation was exclusively between the soloist and the rhythm section.
14. Bebop was primarily a small band music, but found some expression in a few select big bands.
15. A broadened concept of chord substitution came into being; this helped to provide a broader harmonic base.
16. The music moved ever closer to western european music because of its emphasis on harmony and instrumental facility and its increasing use of other western musical devices.
17. The entire language of jazz was questioned, subtracted from, added to, purged, and reaffirmed.
18. Poly-rhythm became an important factor again.
19. Bebop tended to codify all that had gone before; it is considered the common practice period in jazz.
20. Unison melody statements were the rule of thumb because the increasing harmonic complexities made counterpoint and secondary lines less feasible.
21. The break as a structural device regained popularity.
22. Bebop players made liberal use of “quotes” or interpolations from other tunes.
23. Bebop reduced melody to its essentials. there were few backgrounds, some brief introductions and endings, and some unison interludes.
24. Melodic lines were scalar rather than chordal.
25. More sophisticated scales were introduced into the language; one example is the diminished scale (1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7 8)
26. There was more effort to make the solo lines cohesive by linking them together with turn-backs, cycles, and other musical adhesive devices.
27. Piano became the center of the new expression.
28. Asymmetrical solo construction became a fact.

[ragman1]

I'm very tempted to go off now and see what I can do with Blackbird... :-)

[znerken]

I'm very tempted to go off now and see what I can do with Blackbird... :-)

I in fact challenge you all!:





You have one day....

[lawson-stone]

I've been working with the tab all week, so I basically started before I posted this thread. And as I've said before, if there was a solo I liked from a very "famous" bebop player on this particular standard, I would've jumped on that. However, there is not too many recordings of this standard... So, I looked elsewhere.

Some people have already decided what the other person is thinking, I was never like that of course
(said with humor, not being rude!)

Kenny Burrell recorded it with Jimmy Smith on the Standards album. I have seen the transcription floating around somewhere, though I don't recall where.

[znerken]

Kenny Burrell recorded it with Jimmy Smith on the Standards album. I have seen the transcription floating around somewhere, though I don't recall where.

I have actually made one myself, almost finished. If someone want, I welcome them to look over it and finish it. It's on flat.io:

Time to Upgrade your Web Browser


I can give you rights to edit it, if you want to finish it.

[mr. beaumont]

Well count me in...I'll have a chance to record something tomorrow.

[christianm77]

David Baker, a generally respected jazz educator, compiled a list of features of bebop that might be helpful. Of course, each item could be debated, disputed, denied, defended, but this list captures a lot of the total phenomenon of bebop:

Bebop Characteristics compiled by david baker
1.Complex harmonic ideas
2.Longer melodic phrases using odd intervals built on the extension of chords (9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc.).
3.Harmony gained equal footing with melody and rhythm (western influence).
4.A sound instrumental technique was mandatory.
5.A good ear and a quick mind were indispensable.
6.Eighth notes and sixteenth notes became the basic units of time.
7.Horns aimed for clean, piano-like execution.
8.Players followed the trend toward the vibrato-less sound (reducing the latitude and flexibility of sound production is another western concept). As a practical consideration, virtuosity demands an unencumbered sound.
9.The emphasis was more on content than on sound.
10.Complex chords provided soloists with a broader harmonic base; making possible a greater variety of note choices and a higher incidence of chromaticism.
11.Chords served as the improvisational referential rather than the melody.
12.Hot improvisation (fast, intense, impassioned) was the rule.
13.Collective improvisation was exclusively between the soloist and the rhythm section.
14.Bebop was primarily a small band music, but found some expression in a few select big bands.
15.A broadened concept of chord substitution came into being; this helped to provide a broader harmonic base.
16.The music moved ever closer to western european music because of its emphasis on harmony and instrumental facility and its increasing use of other western musical devices.
17.The entire language of jazz was questioned, subtracted from, added to, purged, and reaffirmed.
18.Poly-rhythm became an important factor again.
19.Bebop tended to codify all that had gone before; it is considered the common practice period in jazz.
20.Unison melody statements were the rule of thumb because the increasing harmonic complexities made counterpoint and secondary lines less feasible.
21.The break as a structural device regained popularity.
22.Bebop players made liberal use of “quotes” or interpolations from other tunes.
23.Bebop reduced melody to its essentials.there were few backgrounds, some brief introductions and endings, and some unison interludes.
24.Melodic lines were scalar rather than chordal.
25.More sophisticated scales were introduced into the language; one example is the diminished scale (1 b2 b3 3 #4 5 6 b7 8)
26.There was more effort to make the solo lines cohesive by linking them together with turn-backs, cycles, and other musical adhesive devices.
27.Piano became the center of the new expression.
28.Asymmetrical solo construction became a fact.

Ooooooh so much to quibble with haha - agree with about 50% of this though (!)

Given David Baker thinks Airmail special is a bebop head I’ll agree to disagree, and for all of your sanity.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

One thing missing from that list is the driving bass lines.

[lawson-stone]

Ooooooh so much to quibble with haha - agree with about 50% of this though (!)

Given David Baker thinks Airmail special is a bebop head I’ll agree to disagree, and for all of your sanity.

I only posted for discussion sake; not an endorsement. Though i rather imagine David Baker knows a little about bebop.

[lawson-stone]

So I decided to attempt the challenge... but I have never actually heard the song in my life. I knew Kenny Burrell had recorded it, but honestly I thought it was some folk song or something and never paid attention until this thread. So I found a backing track in a set of tracks I own, printed out the lead sheet, and spent maybe 15 minutes looking it over and decided just to try a solo from almost absolute zero.

This is it. I doubt it's classic bebop, and that chromatically descending chain of Dom. 7 chords I pretty much punted on... but this was fun, flaws, gaffs, goofs, and all.

Now you can say "Well at least I can do better than that guy!"

I do get to show of this lovely ES175, so that's a win...

[ragman1]

is that typical bebop solo as well or?

I'd say it had its roots in bebop, yes.

[ragman1]

I have never actually heard the song in my life

Which is surprising as it's American! It was written in the 20's but became a WW2 song with quite a history re. the Nazis. Worth reading.

Bye Bye Blackbird - Wikipedia

Also good solo!