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rpjazzguitar -
It's simpler than it looks. Basically, if it sounds good, it is. If you think a chord sub from the parallel minor sounds awkward, odd, etc, don't use it. Otherwise enjoy yourself :-)
All Of Me probably isn't a good tune to do it on because it's a lively swing number. You don't want to make it sound too subtle. Stella, on the other hand, is quite different.
Try playing the melody over
Eø - A7b9 - Cø - F7b9 - Fø - Bb7b9 - EbM7
and you'll soon see what's wrong with it.
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10-06-2018 08:26 AM
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Yes... that is one possible application. You are using MI and targeting the 1st two bars of All of Me... changing Cmaj Ionian to C7 Mixolydian. Your... If your using MI as suggested by ragman, as a source for subs.... not using with modal qualities... more in the direction of possible musical organization for embellishment, right. The Cmaj Ionian is really still implied. The C7 is more like a embellishment.
If your were to actually use that C7 mixo with modal qualities and functional guide lines.... say
C13 F-9 / C13 B7b13 / E-9 B7b13 / E-9 E7#9 / A13 etc... and adjust the melody now you wouild be in direction of using MI with modal qualities...
Your not using Fmaj as the reference for using C7.... C7 is the tonal organization and reference. It can be as simple as ragman said... if it sounds good ... it is. But that might be a little naive.
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C Mixolydian has one flat, Bb. How do I get Fm9 or B7b13 from that? Where do the Ab, B and Eb come from?
Originally Posted by Reg
Apparently, I don't understand the terminology "C7 is the tonal organization and reference". What does that mean?
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Ok....make it
C13 G-9 / C13 B7b13 / E9 B7b13 / E9 Bb13 / A13....
how about now
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In the days before the maj7 chord, modal interchange of this kind - Mixolydian for Ionian - was standard - if you choose to look at it that way. 6th chords open up the possibility for the 7 to flat or natural, it's not so specified.
It's very common to find Cm6 being expressed on a C chord - think Charlie Christian - would that qualify as modal interchange? C Dorian for C Ionian? Or is it different if it's superimposed.
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Gm9 is easier for me to understand, since it has only a Bb and it's in the Key of F (same as C7). If we accept that C7 is going to be the tonality, and we treat it as a V7, sure, the iim is an obvious choice to give some movement. Originally Posted by Reg
I still don't get where the Eb and B in B7b13 relate to modal interchange.
I can see B7b13 as a lead-in to E9, but I don't get the relationship to the concept of "modal interchange".
Or maybe you're thinking that it's from CHM or Cmelmin -- but so are lots of other chords that aren't going to smoothly lead in to E9.
What I'm trying to get to is an understanding of the concept as applied to a specific tune.
One last point: lets suppose you decide to use C7 tonality on the first 2 bars of All of Me. You have a Bb. There's an excellent chance the pianist (or another soloist if you're doing this while comping) is going to be playing a B natural and/or an A natural. What is supposed to happen? If your solo includes a Bb, do you want the pianist do go with you and play in Cmixo, or do you want the pianist to stay with Cmaj7 and C6 so that you can create contrast? If you're comping, are you going to dictate Cmixo no matter what the soloist does? (When I'm soloing, I don't want Cmaj changed to C7, forcing me to adjust what I want to play). What if there are two chord instruments behind a horn? Even if the other player immediately hears the C7, he's not going to expect B7b13 -- and you're likely to get a clash.
I guess I don't get the theory and I don't get the application.
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rpjazzguitar -
Well, I'll reiterate what I said before. Given, say, a ii-V- I in C, and given the immense list of possibilities from all the various charts of modes and chords, you can happily substitute virtually any chord with the same root - i.e. a D chord and a G chord. Or a suitable other non-diatonic substitute from a chart.
The only criteria I'd use is:
a) It doesn't conflict with the melody (like that Stella example did, but that was the point) or write the melody to fit with the chords if you're composing.
b) Don't overdo it.
c) Does it sound any good? That's the rub and it's subjective. In other words, it's up to you whether you like it or not. But, of course, what sounds good to you will probably sound fine to most other people too.
The brainy stuff I wouldn't bother with too much, if at all. A grasp of the concept is sufficient and the concept isn't that difficult. Using what you see in known tunes is certainly the safe way but it needn't be the absolute rule...
But, quite honestly, some of the substitutions from the chart (just because they're there) sound diabolical :-)
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Would you play DbM7 - GM7 - CM7? Well, it's possible
(If you're with a band obviously all agree beforehand what you'll be playing)
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I doubt it. I think theorists tend to over-complicate things by using hi falutin' language (Please, I'm NOT being personal to anyone, it's just my view, don't take it bad) and so then you've got two problems. Not only the original idea but trying to translate what the hell those who are fluent in college-speak are talking about! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Most of the subs that work are already in play in known tunes, and they're familiar - iim7b5/Vb9 instead of ii-V, ending on a bIIM7, the backdoor thing, IV to ivm6 (that happens in All Of Me), etc etc. Some more obscure ones can be found in the chart.
But you've also got all the other subs like tritones, altered chords, and all that. Personally, I tend to play a tune as it's written most of the time, it's easier. Subbing some V-Is with a tritone usually works.
A lot depends on the melody. If you're composing you can obviously do what you want with the chords and hence the tune. But re-jigging a known tune needs care.
But All Of Me is a pretty simple tune with a strong melody.
You could play E9 instead of E7 or possibly precede it with a ii7 or iim7b5. You could try an A7b9 before the Dm and break up the Dm with Dm/A7 - Dm. You could put a line in over the Am - Am/AmM7/Am7/AmM7. You could play G7+ before the B part. You could try an F#o instead of Fm (but if you keep the Fm then play Fm6)... and so on. And right at the end at the end try Db7#9/Ab instead of G7.
But I wouldn't call that serious modal interchange, it's just prettying it up, really! If you listen to a lot of instrumental versions and transcriptions on YouTube you'll see they tend to keep it fairly straight.
Keep going, all experience is good :-)
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Yeah. Subs are part of it....
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Yah it’s interesting, watching through that first video, there’s no subs there that I would understand from the point of view of modal anything. So I wonder if it’s just different view on stuff I do already.
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Yea... when you learn what a scale is or was.... you learned a C triad in open position and one octave of Cmaj scale. Eventually you might have expanded your understanding of what a "C" chord is and could be and then maybe, hey I can play this scale all over the fretboard...and there are many "C chords.
Modal interchange is just an expanded application of Borrowing.... when you borrow chords from the parallel Min. ... I hope you get that..... Cmaj scale degree chords become C nat min. scale degree chords.
So expanding that is just borrowing from other relative and parallel scales and the resulting chords from the scale degrees.
When you start to use the different harmonic organization from different Modes.... Borrowing develops Modal characteristics.
Or... if it works for you... just call everything a sub.... and then expand your knowledge of possible subs... eventually expand your knowledge and ears .... hey and maybe in a life time or two... you'll get a decent bag of tricks, right, that's what they are. You don't understand what they really are, where they're from.... but they sound good...
I'm having fun... But I am calling it what it is. Sorry, back to it...
Simple example of changing harmonic characteristics,
Cmaj7 to G7 and back to Cmaj7.... Using typical functional harmonic organization based on "IONIAN" guidelines....
Everyone is aware of..."SO What", the basic modal examples of using Characteristic pitches from different Modes as harmonic organization for creating chord movement... that being using how specific pitches.... react to other notes... in harmonic contexts... and depending on the MODE... what or which notes control that movement.
The result is different chords and their movement can change... different chords can develop Tonic and Dominant characteristics. (we can all hear how a Dominant chord can become a TONIC in Blues etc...)
This is becoming aware of modal characteristics...
So that is like learning that "C" triad, that first scale....and expanding your awareness ... there is more, even if you aren't aware or can't hear it yet.
So Changing that Cmaj7 in All Of Me to C mixolydian (Borrowing or Modal Interchanging)
You have two bars of Cmaj7 or Cmaj6.... I hope your not just playing that Cmaj. If you are or do... you need to start learning how to use CHORD PATTERNS that create or at least give the perception of movement.... if this doesn't sound interesting... Modal Interchange might not be your thing.
Anyway.... I modal interchange Cmaj7 to C13 and choose to use G-7 as my V chord with a lead note of Bb
8 X 8 9 10 X ... C13
X 10 8 10 11 X ... G-9
We already hear II V's... but I could use the characteristic pitch of C mixo... the b7 or "Bb" as functional tool.... When I voice that "Bb" as lead note on the G-7chord....(it become a target...it stands out), modal characteristics of C mixolydian create the perception of tension... and when the note resolves to the "A" along with also using the established root motion of V I... I'm creating a chord Pattern of V to I .
Or I could use the "Eb" to "D" thing.... maybe not Mixolydian... but maybe in the montuno style.. so the changes would be
/ G-7 G-6 / G-7 G-6 / B-7 B-6 / B-7 B-6 /
/ E-7 E-6 / E-7 E-6 / D-7 D-6 / D-7 D-6 / etc... The chords are just notated to give modal guidelines for Montunos.
Different montunos have different patterns based on the modal characteristics.. (I've posted on this before)
So now we're getting into different ways to understand all the BS. And like Christian said... he see's or hears no modal characteristics... in subs.... or something in that direction, (Christian just using you for example, please don't take personal),
There is more... but just become aware of borrowing from Dorian and Lydian, they both create similar Subs.... And melodic minor, MM just helps you organize how to use use Blue Notes in chords with organization... you'll get more subs that cover Blue notes.
Forget Modal interchange.... get back to getting your technique together. Your not going to really be able to use modal interchange concepts if you can play.
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Well, if I do it that way, I'll be in very good company. Originally Posted by Reg
{RANT ON}
More to the point, I have yet to see a specific example of "modal interchange" which I can't already understand with my prior knowledge of "chord substitution".
I'm still looking for that.
For example, if you substitute C7 for Cmaj at the start of All Of Me you're making a chord substitution. In my apparently primitive way of thinking, C7 can be considered to come out of Fmajor, and all the dominant type chords in Fmajor are interchangeable. That includes, of course, Gm7, although an even simpler way to think about it is to figure that every 7th has a iim -- so C7 and Gm7 go together. Or, you could simply be aware that Gm7 raises the E to F and includes the 9th of C - and know what those notes sound like. Other choices would include Bbmaj-something, and Dm7.
The other chords in the montuno suggestion can all be considered iim's.
Simply thinking about "modal interchange" doesn't help you figure out which chords are going to sound good. Rather, you have to figure that out some other way and then, presumably, thinking about "modal interchange" will suggest some other chord choices.
But, of course, so does old fashioned "chord substitution" with fairly simple rules. Like these:
1. The major scale generates tonic and dominant type chords. Cmaj Em Gmaj (often with an F#) Am are all interchangeable. G7 Dm Fmaj and Am are all interchangeable. Bm7b5 is a little more complicated but is generally dominant.
2. All chords generated by the melodic minor scale are the same chord.
3. Tritone subs work and generate other chords by Rules 1 and 2.
4. Half step approaches usually work as chords change in a tune.
5. Back cycling is a way to generate harmonic movement.
6. Stacking fourths creates a different sound -- and, within limits, you can play any stack of fourths within a major scale as either tonic or dominant.
7. Others, I'm not thinking of right now.
So, suppose you decide to play the first chord of All of Me as C lydian. That mode is associated by Rule 1 with the chords of Gmajor. It's tonic type, so you get Gmaj7 Bm7 Dmaj (maybe with C#) and Em7. Now, I don't think I'd do that, because All Of Me isn't that type of tune, the F# conflicts with the melody and I still don't understand what the other musicians are supposed to do when I suddenly start in with Lydian chords on All of Me.
So, it still seems to me that there is a jazz vocabulary, it includes certain substitutions and not others, and you still learn the vocabulary one tune at a time.
I'm still looking for a specific example of the incremental value of "modal interchange" beyond the Rules above.
RANT OFF.
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Well, as has been said before, you could take almost any standard and have a look at it. MI isn't used willy-nilly, there are only a few things that really work. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Obviously there's the im7b5 - V7b9 instead of the usual ii - V, there's the backdoor sub, and so on. You can find it everywhere.
Don't make a thing of it!
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We've talked about borrowing functional relationships etc, but that's not the entire context for MI. At a certain level you can use the word "sub"anyway you want I guess. Doesn't make it the same thing.
Reg does a lot with borrowing from outside functional relationships to access blue notes etc, but I honestly felt like this thread was originally seeking more "out" reharms etc. Kind of a different thing. To be fair reg has done dozens of videos on this stuff. I don't thing he owes me a lot more.
Anyway, there's stuff on YouTube from others for the weird "out" re-harm applications if that's what you're looking for, but they're not necessarily just "subbing" chords one at a time though either.
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-08-2018 at 11:33 AM.
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Thanks for posting the video. It was helpful.
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I see that Miles vid (quite entertaining) broached the subject of what-to-play-over-it. I was going to do that too but I really, really didn't want to get into all that yet.
Till rp's sorted his chord stuff out, anyway...
And, taken simply, not really that difficult to do
But confusing if a substitution could come from several different modes...
etc etc
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I'm thinking about his Dbmaj7. He picks it here because it's on his chord table, but also because it sounds good. It probably sounds better that lots of other chords on the chord table, because it's a half step approach. Originally Posted by ragman1
But, then, since he picked it from the phrygian mode, he now has an idea about what scale to play over it.
Since it's bIImaj7 from C phrygian he's going to play in four flats. Same notes as Abmaj7. That seems like a useful result from the theory.
But, just to push a bit further, Dbmaj7, simply considered in isolation in major scale harmony, could be a Imaj7 in Db or a IVmaj7 in Ab. (In Warren Nunes' system, the Vmaj7 would ordinarily have a #11).
The notes predicted by the phrygian modal interchange are the same as Dbmaj7 being a Imaj7, except for one note. Gb vs G. (That's the difference between Ab and Db Ionian). Which is better? Dbmaj7 is heading to Cmaj7 in the video. You can play the Gb and resolve it up to G or you can just play G for both chords. To me, it's player's choice. That's a game time decision by ear.
To sum up: you still have to pick the chord you want by knowing the sound and, after you've selected the chord and identified the mode from which you are borrowing, in this particular example, that knowledge isn't all that helpful. But, perhaps there are other choices where knowing the mode would result in something more useful than the Gb vs G issue in this case.
I have a more open mind than some of my comments might make it seem. I tend to learn best in any subject by identifying what look like flaws in the lesson and hashing them out.
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Player's choice, as you say. That is, if you like it, it's okay.
Incidentally, your I7-for-IM7 thing is valid too. So CM7 - FM7 - G7 - CM7 can become C7 - F7 - G7 - C7. Which, of course is more or less the blues sound. But it could be restricted to even just a single chord substitution.
In that All Of Me clip I think I played a modal interchange lick over the B part E7. I played it as though it were E7b9 and used a Dm/Fm6 lick. More or less by habit, though, I have to say :-)
So, anyway, are you sorted out now? Don't forget, MI is just one possible way to substitute chords or use them in a new composition. There are all the other ways too, like tritones, modulation, and the standard subs. It's possible that you felt you were missing something because you were giving it more importance and value than it probably has. With new things that happens.
The urge passes with time
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That's probably about right. Had to de-mystify it. Originally Posted by ragman1
Player's choice, as you say. That is, if you like it, it's okay.
Incidentally, your I7-for-IM7 thing is valid too. So CM7 - FM7 - G7 - CM7 can become C7 - F7 - G7 - C7. Which, of course is more or less the blues sound. But it could be restricted to even just a single chord substitution.
In that All Of Me clip I think I played a modal interchange lick over the B part E7. I played it as though it were E7b9 and used a Dm/Fm6 lick. More or less by habit, though, I have to say :-)
So, anyway, are you sorted out now? Don't forget, MI is just one possible way to substitute chords or use them in a new composition. There are all the other ways too, like tritones, modulation, and the standard subs. It's possible that you felt you were missing something because you were giving it more importance and value than it probably has. With new things that happens.
The urge passes with time
Let me see if I can understand what you wrote about All of Me. We're talking about the E7 in Bar 9? "take my lips" is the lyric there. So, we have an E7 heading towards Am as part of a longer sequence heading back to Cmajor.
So, you played E7b9, which leads nicely to Am. Where is that borrowed from? A Harmonic Minor? C Harmonic Major?
Then a Dm and Fm6 lick? Those notes occur in A harmonic minor, although the VI chord is usually Fmaj7.
Do you analyze it this way?
My approach to that part of All of Me, is to continue to think in "all white keys". Call it Cmaj or Am. BUT, the E7 requires a G#, so the G# has to be added. That would probably cause me to use the G nat lightly.
It probably wouldn't occur to me to play a Dm lick, although I think it would sound good. Fm6 fits very well. I might use it because it has, with respect to E7, the b9 3 #5 and 7. Given that there's an A minorish feel to the whole thing that C note against the E7 should fit well. If I used it, I'd be thinking chord tones. If I wanted to embellish it, I'd probably think of it as a Bb9 and use dominant group chords (Warren Nunes' system) in Eb. Fm Abmaj Cm come to mind.
And, of course, theory is for the practice room. I certainly don't want to be thinking about that chord chart in the video when I'm playing. The issue, for me, is to internalize the sounds to the point where I use them unconsciously. At that point, it doesn't matter where I got them from, or whether there is a foundational principle. It may be that modal interchange theory leads to some nice harmonic ideas, but, tbh, I am so backlogged on ways to find new harmonic ideas (a single forum post sometimes outlines a couple of years of work on a particular way to find new sounds) that an idea has to force itself to the front of the line by being obviously indispensable.
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What I'm curious about understanding is how using MI can change the functional reference we harmonically use in the original progression. This is more than just adding new sounds, it's creating a new functional route to a destination. To me that is a somewhat calculated choice.
I see the comments on not overthinking it, but to me, but altering function is harmonically deep, IMO.
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Example, please? Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Thanks Christian. How did you get G Aeolian and G Locrian for the example you provided?
Cmaj7 | % | Cm7 | F7 |
Gmaj9 | % | Bbm7 | Eb7 |
The key of the tune is G major, but we have modal borrowings from G aeolian and G locrian (if you like) so,
IVmaj7 | % | IVm7 | bVII7 |
Imaj9 | % | bIIIm7 | bVI7 |
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I should let one of the theorists answer that but I'd say it shouldn't change the functional reference. Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
Going back to 'All Of Me', it's all in C major. It modulates temporarily into A minor, which is fine. But any MI substitution is simply there to add colour. It doesn't mean the harmony has shifted away from C.
In fact, I think most good tutorials emphasise that, that MI subs should never feel as though the basic harmony or key has changed. That's the job of modulation, not MI subs.
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rp -
Incidentally, there are other archive threads about this. Here's one -
Practical use of Modal Interchange
But it does get heavy. And goes on forever
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