What might you call a 7sus4 that has a 3rd/10th/17th?

[JakeAcci]

Post Edited! I think my original phrasing wasn't clear, so here's another attempt. Below in the quote block was the original post.

If hypothetically I wanted to find the best possible lead-sheet symbol for a chord that contains:

root

5th

b7

4th/11th

option: natural 9th and/or natural 13th

and a major third, voiced in a higher register or the same register as the 4th

What could potentially be the best chord symbol to get a player to create this sound?

For discussion purposes:

- This is for a personal organization project, that might down the road lead to teaching materials I am working on
- It would be sustained for a full measure or longer
- I recognize writing out pitches of a specific voicing is a solution, but does not apply in this context
- I recognize some people don't find any use in coming up with 'proper' names for chords, but that's the nature of my curiosity here.

Here is an example of the sound I am referring too, beat 1 of second measure. It's an E13sus4 with a third on top. To me it is still a sus4 sound - the third does not turn it into a dominant sound.

Hey, this is not a super important issue, and I'm sure has no definitive answer, just curious for a little project I'm doing.

Premise: 7sus4 sometimes may get voiced with a 3rd, just the 3rd is usually voiced higher than the 4th, or at least in the same octave, just typically not lower. If voiced lower we might consider it a 'dominant 11th' chord which just generally isn't used. If hypothetically we did want to name that chord (I know naming it is usually not going to be important) what would we call a 7sus4 that has the third?

Yes I know in a certain technical sense 7sus4 doesn't have a third. But a chord like C7sus4 is so often, in jazz, voiced as Bb/C or Gm7/C, or Bbmaj7/C, Gm9/C, etc, it's not that unusual for it to be something like Bbmaj7#11/C, Gm13/C as long as the F is present below the E pitch (or at least in the same octave) I'm comfortable calling it a 7sus4.

For example, here's are a few voicings from low to high:

C G Bb F A E

C G D F Bb E

I'm comfortable calling those C7sus4 sounds with 9s, 11s, and yeah 3/10.

Think there's a clean name for either?

Again, I know it's not really that important to have a name, and Gm13/C works well for both. But I think a musician looking at Gm13 may not immediately see the importance of including the F in the chord, and it also doesn't describe the fact that it really is a sus4 sound, at least to me.

Is it a 17???? haha...

C17sus4...I'll bring that to a session and likely get punched in the face...

[DonEsteban]

Yes I know in a certain technical sense 7sus4 doesn't have a third. But a chord like C7sus4 is so often, in jazz, voiced as Bb/C or Gm7/C, or Bbmaj7/C, Gm9/C, etc, it's not that unusual for it to be something like Bbmaj7#11/C, Gm13/C as long as the F is present below the E pitch (or at least in the same octave) I'm comfortable calling it a 7sus4.

sus = suspended.
sus4 = suspended but 4 present (Classical suspension thing is used since Bach and earlier)

If not suspended (3rd present) -> not sus

For example,...

C G Bb F A E

That's simply a C7 11 13 .. nothing unusual at all

C G D F Bb E

and that's a C7 9 11 ...

[JakeAcci]

Hey Don, sorry, I gotta disagree with you here.

sus = suspended.
sus4 = suspended but 4 present (Classical suspension thing is used since Bach and earlier)

What is your distinction between sus and sus4? In jazz lead sheets, "sus" is often just short hand for 7sus4, 9sus4, etc. In case of C root, commonly voiced as Bb/C, Bbmaj7/C, etc.

If not suspended (3rd present) -> not sus

It's common enough in standard jazz harmony to hear a 3rd in a sus4 context, but I guess where we might disagree is that you'd consider that a dominant 11th chord, and, depending on context, I'd still call it a sus4.

That's simply a C7 11 13 .. nothing unusual at all

and that's a C7 9 11 ...

I'm not sure if you intend those to be chord names - I think "C7 11 13" is extremely unusual as a name. My understanding/experience is that it's very rare for a dominant chord to have a natural 11 in it - I mean, it gets used, and I suppose 'common/uncommon/rare/usual/unusual' is relative.

I think in terms of sound if we stack a chord as 1 5 b7 9 11 13 (1 again) 3 from low to high the effect of that sound is much much more 7sus4, suspended, than it is a dominant. I suppose that is, like most things, subjective.

[JakeAcci]

a 17th! lol

what about that common voicing with root on 5th string and bars down with the second string one fret higher? replaces the 5th with 4th that is lower than the 3rd. i think most people would just call it a m11 anyway (in the jazz world)

hmm hey Joe could you give note names from low to high for the voicing you're referring to? I'm not clear.

[joe2758]

DGCF

damn i didnt delete my post fast enough, didnt feel like getting schooled haha

[DonEsteban]

Well you can call these chord whatever you want.

7sus4 chords (doesn't matter if there is a 9, 13 or whatever) are predominantly used in just two situations:

A)
as a "suspension" that is resolved like in

G C D F (sus chord)
G B D F (dom. 7 chord)

this is the classic one, used since baroque era hence my reference to J.S. Bach.
If you put a third in the first chord the hole thing is thwarted, simply doesn't work, nothing to resolve here.

B)
You use a sus chord to neutralize a chord, make it gender-less, neither minor or major. In this case there is no resolve following. That was very much in fashion in the 60s modal Jazz (think Maiden Voyage, Chick Corea et alli )

In this case adding a third is as well counterproductive, as the chord would be no longer gender neutral.


Just my 2c

[joe2758]

ya know if yall would just listen to barry harris this stuff would not be an issue lol

[JakeAcci]

Well you can call these chord whatever you want.

7sus4 chords (doesn't matter if there is a 9, 13 or whatever) are predominantly used in just two situations:

A)
as a "suspension" that is resolved like in

G C D F (sus chord)
G B D F (dom. 7 chord)

this is the classic one, used since baroque era hence my reference to J.S. Bach.
If you put a third in the first chord the hole thing is thwarted, simply doesn't work, nothing to resolve here.

B)
You use a sus chord to neutralize a chord, make it gender-less, neither minor or major. In this case there is no resolve following. That was very much in fashion in the 60s modal Jazz (think Maiden Voyage, Chick Corea et alli )

In this case adding a third is as well counterproductive, as the chord would be no longer gender neutral.


Just my 2c

I don't know Don, I feel like I've heard (and used) major thirds on 7sus4 chords often enough, in higher registers, that I think if you really listen it does retain the sus sound. Also, 'dominant eleventh' just isn't really a thing that people say or use, in my experience, so I think it throws that potential name out the window.

Here's an example of what I'm talking about:

7sus4 with 3 example | Soundslice (link plays audio)



Like you said, you can call it whatever you want, but to my ears that 5th voicing is still very much "sus" and the G# does not neutralize the sus sound to my ears. I would not call it an E11, or E13(11)

[Lionelsax]

G7sus4 = D minor Bass G (ret 4 goes to 3rd).... Or a pedal II V G7sus4 G7

The same way that in certain circonstances

D minor 6 = G7 or G9 Bass D

[JakeAcci]

G7sus4 = D minor Bass G (ret 4 goes to 3rd).... Or a pedal II V G7sus4 G7

The same way that in certain circonstances

D minor 6 = G7 or G9 Bass D

But what about if, for G7sus4, C and B are present in same voicing, C voiced higher than B?

[Lionelsax]

But what about if, for G7sus4, C and B are present in same voicing, C voiced higher than B?

If B and C are present in the voicing, I should play it in 4th (G C F B)

[bako]

The classical music origin of the term suspended relates to the fact that the situation is temporary
and will resolve back to it's prime content of major or minor. Fast foward, formerly suspended structures
no longer have to resolve but we still call them suspended chords and in the scenario you are presenting,
both the suspended tone and the resolution co-exist inside the same voicing.

Chord symbols are a short hand system but when things gets too convoluted, it is wise to consider just
notating your intention.The slash chord approach is probably your best option within the chord symbol realm.
Slash chords are very good at channeling the player towards an intended voicing.

The context a chord is presented is also an important influence for the name chosen.

[Lionelsax]

The name of the chord is not important but its function is.

[JakeAcci]

If B and C are present in the voicing, I should play it in 4th (G C F B)

hey Lionel, the question was what the name might be, if one wanted to name it.

[JakeAcci]

The name of the chord is not important but its function is.

Hey Lionel, I acknowledged in the original post that the name is not super consequential, but the post is asking about the name of the chord. I could expand on the purposes of the project and why finding a name is important/useful in this context, but it might get us a bit off topic.

[DonEsteban]

Some info:

Eleventh chord - Wikipedia

Suspended chord - Wikipedia

[JakeAcci]

The classical music origin of the term suspended relates to the fact that the situation is temporary
and will resolve back to it's prime content of major or minor. Fast foward, formerly suspended structures
no longer have to resolve but we still call them suspended chords and in the scenario you are presenting,
both the suspended tone and the resolution co-exist inside the same voicing.

Chord symbols are a short hand system but when things gets too convoluted, it is wise to consider just
notating your intention.The slash chord approach is probably your best option within the chord symbol realm.
Slash chords are very good at channeling the player towards an intended voicing.

The context a chord is presented is also an important influence for the name chosen.

Thanks Bako. I feel like this sound is common enough that a name would be useful, but maybe collectively as a 'lead sheet community' we aren't quite there yet.

One specific context might be if I were writing out a solo guitar arrangement to share with others/students and wanted to have a good name for each chord or voicing used, recognizing the extensions and tensions. For the chords in question I'd probably just call them "C9sus4" or C13sus4" but might say "C9sus4(with3)" or something, if I had to do it today.

Maybe this sound is common enough that people accept it as part of sus4 harmony, but not common enough yet that there could be an agreed upon lead sheet indication or short hand.

[Lionelsax]

hey Lionel, the question was what the name might be, if one wanted to name it.

I think it's about quartal harmony... he should go there...

D- G7 C

Soprano : B A G

Alto : F E D

Tenor : C B A

Bass : G F E

[JakeAcci]

Some info:

Eleventh chord - Wikipedia

Suspended chord - Wikipedia

Thanks Don - doesn't really introduce anything new to the discussion though. Was there a particular point in either of the pages that clarified something we haven't touched on?

[JakeAcci]

I think it's about quartal harmony... he should go there...

D- G7 C

Soprano : B A G

Alto : F E D

Tenor : C B A

Bass : G F E

I'm sorry I may have not been clear. Maybe a shorter way to ask the question is, if you hypothetically had to name this chord:

C G Bb F A E

what would you call it?

[Lionelsax]

I'm sorry I may have not been clear. Maybe a shorter way to ask the question is, if you hypothetically had to name this chord:

C G Bb F A E

what would you call it?

It's quartal G C F Bb E A
It's everything you want.
It stands for G-7 C7sus4 FMaj9sus4...

[medblues]

C13
Fmaj11
Gm13
Bbmaj7sus2add13,b5

just a few naming conventions

[Lionelsax]

Men, I don't want to be provocative but you should touch a piano sometimes because it says everything more than a guitar, don't forget you are supposed to play music not just the guitar. On the other hand some would like to kill me because the forum is about the guitar.

[bako]

C9sus(add 3)

more established convention for the word “add” than for “with”

[Lionelsax]

C9sus(add 3)

more established convention for the word “add” than for “with”

Yes and CMaj9 is called

- first inversion Emin7addb6
- second inversion G6add11
- third inversion Bminor #5 add11
- fourth inversion D13 sus4 without 5

The way chords are named sometimes is a none-sense.