Super Locrian Scale

**Greg Thomas** · 09-21-2009, 07:25 PM

Hi folks, just joined the forum.

**timscarey** · 09-22-2009, 05:29 PM

Sorry guys,

Super Locrian is the 6th mode of the melodic minor scale.

It ts a locrian scale with a raised 2nd degree.

R-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

it is used over half diminished or anywhere the melodic minor scale rears it's head.

**randalljazz** · 09-22-2009, 05:48 PM

(7th mode)

**timscarey** · 09-22-2009, 11:31 PM

figure it out.

in a melodic minor

f#-g#-a-b-c-d-e

**randalljazz** · 09-23-2009, 02:55 AM

Originally Posted by timscarey

figure it out.

in a melodic minor

f#-g#-a-b-c-d-e

that is the 6th mode. locrian #2 (or #9). works for half diminished chords. it has R-2-b3-4-b5-b6-b7

g#-a-b-c-d-e-f# is super locrian/diminished whole tone/altered. works for V7 type chords. it has R-b9-#9-M3-#4-#5-b7 (some enharmonic spelling required).

**timscarey** · 09-23-2009, 05:37 AM

So everyone's a winner.

But seriously, which of these two scales should really be called super locrian? niether, because they both have like 3 names already. : )

**franco6719** · 09-23-2009, 05:40 AM

I'm not quite sure anybody here bothered to answer the original question, so I just looked it up myself:

The former name [i.e. Superlocrian]derives from the fact that while the locrian mode flats every degree of the major scale except the fourth
The super locrian mode flats the fourth as well:

Sometimes these forums.........

**franco6719** · 09-23-2009, 05:43 AM

Originally Posted by mike walker

A locrian scale has everything flattened but the 4th. The formula is R b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. Super locrian goes one more, R b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7. If ya now flat the root ya get another maj scale. So i guess that would be a super dooper scale!!

Ah sorry. I didn't see this.

**timscarey** · 09-23-2009, 05:45 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

I'm not quite sure anybody here bothered to answer the original question, so I just looked it up myself:

.....

Where did you look it up?

**franco6719** · 09-23-2009, 05:48 AM

Originally Posted by Static_Gaze

Hmmm...I'm not sure if anyone's given me the answer I'm looking for, I understand the super locrian having a b4, but I don't think that really explains why it's called 'super', a thought has occurred to me; maybe it's called 'super' because it starts on the 'supertonic'? I dunno, what do you guys think??

Also, how would I go about naming a chord where the root is played twice but one is flattened? Like : B D# A C# G Bb.

I would seriously recommend not taking naming conventions too seriously. These sound sequences are really just, as Mark Levine puts it, an "available pool of notes."

**franco6719** · 09-23-2009, 05:50 AM

Music Theory: Jazz Scales: Melodic Minor Harmony: Altered Scale

**randalljazz** · 09-23-2009, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by Static_Gaze

Also, how would I go about naming a chord where the root is played twice but one is flattened? Like : B D# A C# G Bb.

that is probably best written as a polychord or slash chord. the presence of three notes each separated by a semitone (A, Bb, B) makes spelling in thirds impractical.

analyzing as a B7 type chord is problematic, with the presence of the M7:

B9#5addMA7...yuk!

one possibility for this one:

A7b9b5/B

but context is required to be certain.

**JohnW400** · 09-23-2009, 01:19 PM

Originally Posted by Static_Gaze

Also, how would I go about naming a chord where the root is played twice but one is flattened? Like : B D# A C# G Bb.

If you look at it , the only place you can get 3) 1/2 steps in a row is by thinking of them as the #11, 5 and b13. so this ** could ** be Eb7 #11 b13.

b13, R, #11, 7 , 3, 5. However that's REALLY a stretch especially starting on the b13 .

What you really have here are fragments of three triads, B , A and Gm. You could also think of it as an A7b9 superimposed over a B9

If you added F# between the D# and the A you could make an nice , out sounding 13th arpeggio B D# F# A C# G Bb

ok , so the crossword in todays paper was boring and this looked like a better thing to solve

**derek** · 09-23-2009, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by JohnW400

If you look at it , the only place you can get 3) 1/2 steps in a row is by thinking of them as the #11, 5 and b13. so this ** could ** be Eb7 #11 b13.

b13, R, #11, 7 , 3, 5. However that's REALLY a stretch especially starting on the b13 .

What you really have here are fragments of three triads, B , A and Gm. You could also think of it as an A7b9 superimposed over a B9

If you added F# between the D# and the A you could make an nice , out sounding 13th arpeggio B D# F# A C# G Bb

ok , so the crossword in todays paper was boring and this looked like a better thing to solve

I am glad you did, as I learned something just reading that post. Thanks John.

**timscarey** · 09-23-2009, 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by franco6719

Music Theory: Jazz Scales: Melodic Minor Harmony: Altered Scale

I was taught that the 6th mode is called super locrian because it is the locrian scale with the supertonic. I guess it just depends who you learn from. This website also says that there is no name for the 5th MM mode and has no info at all on the 6th mode. But really, what's a name?

**JohnW400** · 09-23-2009, 03:58 PM

Originally Posted by timscarey

I. I guess it just depends who you learn from. This website also says that there is no name for the 5th MM mode and has no info at all on the 6th mode. But really, what's a name?

I always thought the 5th mode of the MM was the Arabian scale. But as you correctly point out , whats a name?

I was reading some posts on AAJ about the harmonic major. Losts of info there about tetra chords and neat things like that. Very interesting but still, bottom line...what does it sound like?

I definately subscribe to Joe Pass' belief in sounds rather than names. After you analyze enough scale systems and chords you start to see how one chord can act differently and sound the same.
( Dominant 7 as a minor. Minor 7th as a major, 1/2 diminished as a dominant 7, etc)

You could probably reduce this down all the way to a minor 7th and you'd have the Pat Martino concept

If I remember , Joe P uses the following voicing as an example and calls it Gmi6/9, C13, F#7 #5#9, Emi11b5 , Bbma7b5.

[chord]

||---|---|---|---|-4-|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|

[/chord]

**franco6719** · 09-27-2009, 05:05 AM

I was working out what chord/scale would fit, according to the usual chord-scale theory, over a G7b9b13 a few days ago. I usually try to avoid thinking in these terms nowadays, but I was going through some exercises from one of the Jerry Bergonzi books. I started playing the scale and it sounded like harmonic minor. Then I realized that the notes constituted C harmonic minor to be exact. So, I though "Ah, it is the fifth mode of harmonic minor." I wonder that is called. Then, I though...well, it could be called "the fifth mode of harmonic minor" since it sounds like the fifth mode of harmonic minor. (;

**do1625** · 06-14-2011, 08:47 AM

The origin of the name "super locrian" still seems obscure even after reading all these posts. The notion of thinking Ab melodic minor when playing a G7 altered chord is troublesome. Certainly it can be thought of this way, and it does put your hands on the right notes, but Ab minor doesn't have have a B natural, G7 doesn't have a Cb. For that matter G7 altered does not have an A# but rather a Bb (erroneously called#9) and a B natural...G7altered utilizes the notes of the C harmonic minor scale but with the melodic elements derived from C melodic minor...thus giving B natural in the harmony and Bb in the melody. Bach, Mozart, Chopin and nearly all serious composers have used this and all of them spell it correctly. If all I'm looking for is a guick memory aid for finding the right notes, then Ab melodic minor will give me G7 altered. On the other hand if I'm looking for a correct theory that will lead to a thorough understanding, I would begin with correct spelling! Commonly the scale omits Db and becomes Ab Bb B Eb F G. That depends of the function of the harmony at the moment. The Db has resolution obligations that make the use of it a bit tricky. The scale without Db is practical in most cases for all modes of the scale, including when Db is the root (Db13 #11), as odd as that seems. Pardon my pedantic tendency, but I hate wrong spelling.

**JohnRoss** · 06-14-2011, 09:33 AM

Originally Posted by Static_Gaze

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone can tell me why it's called, "Super Locrian"? ...is there a reason for 'super' Locrian?

This is pure speculation, I'm not trying to stretch my bullshit credibility here, but I get the impression that the 'super' here means 'more' (whereas in 'supertonic' it means 'above'). In theory, the peculiar thing about the Locrian mode is that classical theory denies its very existence, on account of it being not just minor but having the flat fifth, which makes it useless for classical purposes of dissonance/resolution, i.e., it can't be used in cadences (classical-classical music has no vii-iii, I understand, but I'm not going to argue if anyone pooh-poohs the idea). I could imagine that the flat fourth would make it less suitable for this purpose - if vii-iii (in C, Bmb5 - Em) is a no-no, then vii-bIII+ (Bmb5 - Eb+5) would be even worse, because instead of going from dissonance to consonance, which is what it's all about in classical, you would be going from dissonance to nastiness.

But I'd quite like to know if this is right, as well.

**do1625** · 06-14-2011, 11:15 AM

"classical music has no vii-iii" is incorrect. Classical music abounds with vii iii progressions including minor keys..."C" harmonic minor, for example, is Bdim7 to Ebmaj7 aug5. It happens all the time in Bach and countless others. It is pop and jazz that rarely utilize the vii iii, instead repacing it with a progression such as Cmaj7 Fmaj7 B half-dim with F in the bass Em.

**JohnRoss** · 06-14-2011, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by do1625

It happens all the time in Bach and countless others.

Bach is baroque, not classical-classical.

**JohnW400** · 06-14-2011, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by do1625

The origin of the name "super locrian" still seems obscure even after reading all these posts. The notion of thinking Ab melodic minor when playing a G7 altered chord is troublesome.

See that's the problem right there. You're confusing the name super locrian with it's jazz counterpart, the altered scale. The altered scale is thought of as degrees of a scale in relation to the context of the harmony rather than as just an Ab melodic minor scale.

this scale works for quite a few chords and the degrees change according to what chord they are used against. Context is everything

If I play that very same scale against a Db7 I no longer have a b/#9 nor a #5. All the notes from the Ab melodic minor now fit without worrying about incorrect enharmonics.

We'll blame it on that devils interval

**gingerjazz** · 06-15-2011, 08:52 AM

Something i was once shown over alt dominants is to play the melodic minor half step up as mr B mentioned ,so for G alt use Ab melodic minor but then to base my lines on the arpeggios generated from the harmonized melodic minor scale,for instance Ab m/maj7 arp.Does anyone else use this approach ,it a great way to break up the scale.