Observation, Charlie Parker and m7b5

[christianm77]

Lester Young, too, uses the same language as Christian. My first real jazz teacher (a Tristano student) was adamant about coloring tonic minors with either 6 or (very occasionally) M7. To this day it still weirds me out to hear someone play a m7 on a tonic chord in a tune.

Yeah me too (unless it's really a contemporary or post modal vibe. 60s stuff too often as the b7 minor sound.)

But I'm really talking about running the major V sound into minor - for instance A mixolydian/dominant into Dm. This seems to have been a thing.

From a ii/v perspective that means a major ii v into minor.

A good example in repertoire is the middle 8 of Invitation the melody uses the major 3rd of each key on the ii v so to speak resolving chromatically for instance C# C B on Bm7(9) E7(#5) Am(9)

(although it's from a movie score and Kaper's harmonic language is coming out of post-Wagnerian symphonic music, Strauss etc than jazz AFAIK .... Now there's a link id love to explore... )

Of course Bill Evans was quite known for adding the nat2 to iim7b5 chords as well. In fact this addition was referenced above ...

So basically - do what you frickin like so long as you voicelead something beautiful over the top....

[joe2758]

you can also fake turn a tuning knob so it looks like your ear is just so good that you had an out of tune string no one else could hear, but you couldn't stand to give the audience anything but pure perfection. Hop back into your solo on the next phrase.

[docbop]

TBH these guys were far too busy playing music to get caught up in the niceties of the chord symbols which were always only a simplification.

That's the important point. They didn't have all this Jazz theory like today these guys came from the streets, learned by playing in bands and listening, listening, and listening. One thread here talks more theory than those guys would in a year or ever. When they did get together to talk music they did a lot of singing lines to each other or play on piano. They knew most the cats had no formal training so singing and playing was their way to communicate, that's why they refereed to things as "sounds" so much.

We have theory so we can try to describe sound on paper but sound always has to be the first thing you think about. Because describing sounds is like telling someone what the color Blue looks like, can't be done so best to show them.

Oh well too early need coffee.

[rpjazzguitar]

Lots of great information!

I'm not quite sure what I do on m7b5. I know the notes in every Xm7b5, so I definitely play chord tones as part of what I do.

Beyond that, I have a sense of tonal center. So, for example, if it's Dm7b5, G7b9 to Cm, I think chord tones plus notes in a Cm scale.

I'm aware that there are several alternative versions of Cm, different 6s and 7s. But, I never think about that. I make those choices by ear.

Upon reflection, that doesn't leave out too many notes. C D Eb F G G# A A# B. So, I guess I avoid C# E and F#.

[fasstrack]

Observation, Charlie Parker and half diminished chord


So a while back a buddy (who's a great player) was asking me how I approach playing over min7b5. Well that question popped back into my head while Parkers omnibook was sitting next to me, I thought "let's see what old Charlie has to say about it". Here's what I found.


Disclaimer, I don't think or play using chord scale theory 95% of the time. It's simply used here as a descriptor.


Over a min7b5 Charlie is very consistent. He uses (locrian) a b2 when playing over this chord. With 2 exceptions.


If the min7b5 is used on the vii (usually cycling to the vi, so in C, Bmin7b5 E7 Am) he will use both locrian nat 2, and the b2.


Unless the min7b5 is used as a iim7b5 in a major key, he will use the nat 2, which makes sense as it is the diatonic 3rd of the I chord.




There you have it, Charlie's approach to playing over half diminished chords. Do with that what you will.

Not to dis or make fun or light of your post, but:

There's a funny story about Harry Leahy, who did a lot of teaching, and must've been very organized theoretically, etc., approached Wes on a gig.

(After introducing himself, and a little chitchat)

'Excuse me, Mr. Montgomery, but I'd like to know what you play over a Bb half-diminished chord?'

(Spreading his fingers into 2 different positions) 'Well, sometime I go like this---and sometime I go like THIS'...

[John A.]

Observation, Charlie Parker and half diminished chord


So a while back a buddy (who's a great player) was asking me how I approach playing over min7b5. Well that question popped back into my head while Parkers omnibook was sitting next to me, I thought "let's see what old Charlie has to say about it". Here's what I found.


Disclaimer, I don't think or play using chord scale theory 95% of the time. It's simply used here as a descriptor.


Over a min7b5 Charlie is very consistent. He uses (locrian) a b2 when playing over this chord. With 2 exceptions.


If the min7b5 is used on the vii (usually cycling to the vi, so in C, Bmin7b5 E7 Am) he will use both locrian nat 2, and the b2.


Unless the min7b5 is used as a iim7b5 in a major key, he will use the nat 2, which makes sense as it is the diatonic 3rd of the I chord.




There you have it, Charlie's approach to playing over half diminished chords. Do with that what you will.

IOW, he if it's a iimyb5, he plays in the parent minor key and if it's viim7b5 he plays in the parent minor key. I'm shocked.

John

[kekkuli]

Personally I never try to analyze Parker much.

I see his improvisation mainly as chord tones + extensions with some chromatics thrown in. It is not scalar so this kind of analysis (even if great) does not really fit.

Been playing the Omnibook at LOT lately and it is amazing how much repetition there is in his solos. He really created the bebop vocabulary - roots of 'jazz language'.

By the way this is a great website!

[christianm77]

Personally I never try to analyze Parker much.

I see his improvisation mainly as chord tones + extensions with some chromatics thrown in. It is not scalar so this kind of analysis (even if great) does not really fit.

Been playing the Omnibook at LOT lately and it is amazing how much repetition there is in his solos. He really created the bebop vocabulary - roots of 'jazz language'.

By the way this is a great website!

Repetition is a vital part of any improvisors armoury. Apart from Allan Holdsworth, he never seems to repeat himself.

Anyway Parker/analysis/theory - yeah. I hear you... Actually Bird's solos do contain a fair number of actual stepwise scales (it's not all chord tones and embellishment and blues) but these are not used in the modern sense, more as decorating runs.

In fact Barry Harris's approach to Parker is fundamentally scalic, but he deals with scales in a very specific way. For instance, one type of phrase ending like might end up on the 9th (or 2 as he calls it) but it comes from running the triad on the 5th of the scale, for instance.

So analyses vary.

Personally I feel that as soon as analysis goes from the practical 'what' to the theoretical 'why' you are getting away from the nuts and bolts aspect of simply learning the language towards analysis. It can be helpful have a system that links everything together though, I will say.

Now - you don't want to become a mere regurgitator of licks, which is where this process becomes a lot mysterious. One valid approach appears to be to learn lots and lots of vocabulary and then waiting for it to 'cook.'

I am skeptical of the value (for myself) of trying to inject this into my playing by adopting a new 'concept'. That seems too intellectual.

I'll let you know when I have any answers about the interplay between these factors. Perhaps there are only questions... But I intuitively feel it's a mistake getting too caught up in the theoretical details when there are real musical details that require attention.

[pingu]

In addition to the raw note collections which can be played off of a single m7b5 are it's related subs/chord patterns.

For Bm7b5 as iim7b5, you can play off of its related V of Ealt.

If it's a G9: play off of its related ii7 of D min 7.

Basically ANY chord from one of the 2 related MM scales can be played off of half dim. Off of Bm7b5, you have potential access to all of those chords and can make new relationships off of them as well. If it's a vii of melodic minor, you might play off its related "ii" of F#m7b5. If it's a vi of melodic minor, you might play off its related ii-V of Em7b5 to B7alt etc., each with its own melodic minor reference or other scales etc.

More than that for sure, But that's the beginnings of finding where a lot of the blue notes are.

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk

Could you clarify this for me matt ?

On Bmin7b5 E7 to Amin

What are the two mm scales (and chords thereof)
you are talking about ?

Fmm and Xmm

What is Xmm ?

Or have I got you wrong ?
Thanks

[pingu]

snip. (Triad pairs, US triads etc are a way of accessing these of course.)
.

Hi Christian ,
I know the Triad pairs thing

What are US triads ?

Pingu
(Taking cover for the gags)

[Stevebol]

Hi Christian ,
I know the Triad pairs thing

What are US triads ?

Pingu
(Taking cover for the gags)

US triads. Those are the one's that upstage the entertainment in gangster movies. They usually wind up wacking a musician. Love triangle or something.
In a best case scenario the club is propped up by gambling money. It's the kinder gentler vice most of the time. It's not like live music adds up without being subsidized.

Those good old US Triads.

[kekkuli]

US triads. Those are the one's that upstage the entertainment in gangster movies. They usually wind up wacking a musician. Love triangle or something.
In a best case scenario the club is propped up by gambling money. It's the kinder gentler vice most of the time. It's not like live music adds up without being subsidized.

Those good old US Triads.

This.

Or upper structure triads. Up to you.

[pingu]

Oh OK upper structure triads
Tanks

[pingu]

Could you clarify this for me matt ?

On Bmin7b5 E7 to Amin

What are the two mm scales (and chords thereof)
you are talking about ?

Fmm and Xmm

What is Xmm ?

Or have I got you wrong ?
Thanks

Anyone know the other mm scale being referee to here ?
Dmm maybe ?

[christianm77]

This.

Or upper structure triads. Up to you.

I also recommend the covfefe augmented scale.

[PMB]

Lester Young, too, uses the same language as Christian. My first real jazz teacher (a Tristano student) was adamant about coloring tonic minors with either 6 or (very occasionally) M7. To this day it still weirds me out to hear someone play a m7 on a tonic chord in a tune.

Check out Young, Christian and all the earlier players on a jazz blues and you'll find that the 6th gets a workout on tonic majors as well (later on, it tends to be expressed as a 13th on a tonic dominant). Makes sense really, as the 6th has a direct relationship to all the basic chords - e.g., the 6th of the I, 3rd of the IV, 9th of the V, root of the VI, 5th of the ii.

[PMB]

An interesting Parker tune to analyse regarding m7b5s, particularly the relationship between the i and vi might be Segment/Diverse as it's in a minor key (extremely rare for Bird).

[christianm77]

Is there a compelling reason to not view m7b5 as a m6, at least in standard changes jazz?

That reminds me - in classical cadences you quite often get a 6th chord on chord IV - this can be major or minor. There's obviously a really intimate relationship between IV and II that goes way back.

According to Barry Harris they are all 6th chords.

[fasstrack]

(I say this with love) You guys remind me of something Jimmy Raney told me when I played an isolated chord or few chords at a lesson in '79---and looked at him like 'well, what about THAT?---Whattaya think?'). He shot my young hinie a look and said 'That's like asking me what I think of the word "the"'...

I just think in my own dotage that it's hard to make music when you isolate its components into individual events. A chord, idea, anything else has no meaning other than how it relates to what precedes or follows. So what to call it or how to analyze it is IMO quite beside the point...

[christianm77]

Sure.
In practice I think of things like iim7b5 V7 Im as a unit together - a movement towards a chord. I don't really express the chords independently. Barry Harris taught me that. It doesn't surprise my that's what Raney said.

But it helps to read words before you can parse sentences.

[fasstrack]

[QUOTE=christianm77;802884 It doesn't surprise my that's what Raney said.[/QUOTE]It's what ANY real improviser or musician period----or, for that matter, anyone doing ANYTHING would say. We look at the forest, not the trees, if we want to walk through it. Isolating a chord or anything else is getting fixated on a 'tree'. Makes no sense to me, and I believe it to be a cul de sac. And all this parsing to me is a not the most musicianly approach. When we speak we do it in sentences, paragraphs, etc. We don't stop to over-analyze every word hopefully. Music is a language, and no different...

[christianm77]

It's what ANY real improviser or musician period----or, for that matter, anyone doing ANYTHING would say. We look at the forest, not the trees, if we want to walk through it. Isolating a chord or anything else is getting fixated on a 'tree'. Makes no sense to me, and I believe it to be a cul de sac. And all this parsing to me is a not the most musicianly approach. When we speak we do it in sentences, paragraphs, etc. We don't stop to over-analyze every word hopefully. Music is a language, and no different...

I daresay you are right.

(I probably give the impression that I analyse stuff much more than I do as an actual player. In practice, I just play music. If I see a minor II-V-I, I play some sort of minor line that goes in and out of the triad. It may or may not resolve... If it doesn't, people can go 'oh it's a upper extension' - whatever)

The very act of talking about ones process leads down this route. Jazz colleges etc formalise these elements while what students actually learn is through (funnily enough) making music with tutors and other students. But they have to have paperwork to make it a qualification.

I am in several minds about the amount of analysis that needs to be done by the student. At the moment, I just feel I want to immerse myself in music and phrases and so on... But is that the right path for a student just starting out?

I take my students through the process of working stuff out by ear. They tend to be delighted when they find it is easier than they think. The amount of analysis of that material afterwards? Not so sure... How much would you do with a student?

[fasstrack]

I daresay you are right.

(I probably give the impression that I analyse stuff much more than I do as an actual player...)

Good. Now I can eat the veggies I was gonna throw across the pond at you instead. Would've made my arms a tad tired anyway, I daresay---eh what?...

[fasstrack]

But seriously, ladies and germs:

Good, thoughtful post, Christian. And there's nothing wrong with learning the meaning of 'words' that make up 'sentences'----w/the proviso that the sentences and paragraphs are what matter. And, of course, I was talking about the act of playing, not learning. Glad you made that clarification. We definitely have to break data down to students, or do a lousy job. They'll go scratching their heads if they don't understand how to put it together, and that includes knowing how the components function and fit together.

'Good lookin' out', man...

[christianm77]

Good. Now I can eat the veggies I was gonna throw across the pond at you instead. Would've made my arms a tad tired anyway, I daresay---eh what?...

Nooo not the parsnip!