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Many thanks John, I am jotting that down and will try it out as soon as I can get to a guitar! Don't think I would have thought of that one myself as it uses an open string - which makes me wonder about learning more chords with open strings in them. Do you know of any good books/source material for learning to use jazz chords with open strings?
Originally Posted by JohnW400
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-2-|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|4--|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|x
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|-1-|---|---|---|
[/chord]
Here's one for you that has all the good stuff in the ma7#11
C x B E (open) F# G
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09-02-2009 03:45 PM
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No but it's on my list of possible chord books to write. One day I'll get to it.
The easiest way to approach this is to take a 'Freddie Greene" type voicing starting close to the nut and then add an open string. Of course you'll have to figure out what quality the chord becomes.
Here, take this E7 and move it up in 1/2 steps while playing the open E , first string. The G7 becomes G13, The Bb7 Becomes Bb7b5 (#11) . I'll let you find the rest.
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|0
||---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|x
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|x
[/chord]
Then move it down to here and do the same with the open B (or both B & E)
[chord]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/chord]
Lastly...
[CHORD]
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-3-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||-1-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|-2-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
[/CHORD]
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Write that book, write it! I'll buy it I promise you! Originally Posted by JohnW400
But in the meantime, thanks for the tips!
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Here is another, an E Maj #11, to add to JohnW's suggestions (hope the way I wrote it out is clear with the chord degrees rather than fingering): Originally Posted by Meggy
I have to say I quite like the sound of the perfect 5th and sharp 11 next to each other, plus I don't mind the lack of a major 3rd either. Maybe I just have weird ears or something! Although such differences of taste are one of the things that makes us all unique, which is important.
R||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
5||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-||---|---|#11|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-||---|---|---|-9-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-||---|-5-|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
R||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
I especially like this one arpeggiated, with that minor 2nd interval between the third and second strings. Since there is no third, it could actually be a rather unusual minor #11 chord, with the minor third missing, though that is less likely.
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Chords with open strings are not good candidates for "out-of-the-pocket" chords, because the sound of the strings is not homogeneous. I would not include them in a "chord dictionary". However the sound can be quite interesting, when used on purpose. For instance, listen to Ralph Towner, or Bill Frisell. Originally Posted by Meggy
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Yes, now you mention it I have heard Frisell going for that sort of thing sometimes. Haven't listened to Ralph Towner very much in the past so I'll try to check out some of his stuff soon. I agree it tends to give an un-even sound so needs using with some care - maybe in a more planned way as you suggest. Although I would still like to see a chord book about the subject! Originally Posted by jonasfixe
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That's a very nice one, cheers gkorm! Originally Posted by gkorm
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And Jim Hall! Originally Posted by jonasfixe
Also check out John Stowell. There are some great clips of his solo guitar work on youtube.
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Try this in the context of improv with B harmonic minor scale (or less common but maybe less interesting, B harmonic major). Could maybe get something like one of those John Mclaughlin Indian vibes. : ) Originally Posted by gkorm
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I'll give this a try, cheers! Plus I really should listen to Jim Hall a bit more, and I'm afraid I have to admit to never (knowingly) hearing John Stowell - I'm off to YouTube now! Originally Posted by gkorm
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Re John Stowell:
I love this one and the series of links that are on the same page:
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Nice playing. Originally Posted by gkorm
Yes, chords with open strings sound better in acoustic guitars. (Don't know if anyone already mentioned that...)
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What an outrageously talented player he is - love it. Although I find his style quite daunting to contemplate in terms of it's possible influence on my own humble efforts. His lines and chordal stuff are so different I kind of find it hard to know where to start. But I love it, will have to buy a CD I think - any recommendations? Originally Posted by gkorm
Since I joined this site I have become aware of 3 players especially I had never heard of before: Johnathan Kriesberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, and now John Stowell. How had I never heard these people before?
And how many more are there I wonder?
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Well Meggy, I think there are far more than one human can handle! Originally Posted by Meggy
What an outrageously talented player he is - love it. Although I find his style quite daunting to contemplate in terms of it's possible influence on my own humble efforts. His lines and chordal stuff are so different I kind of find it hard to know where to start. But I love it, will have to buy a CD I think - any recommendations?
Since I joined this site I have become aware of 3 players especially I had never heard of before: Johnathan Kriesberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, and now John Stowell. How had I never heard these people before? And how many more are there I wonder?
Being on this and other lists for a while, sometimes I get deceived to know there are so many good players, that I will never get a chance to get known...
Anyway, I got to know some guitarists that were well worth it.
Kurt Rosenwinkel is great. Check also Pedro Madaleno...
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Hi Meggy, Originally Posted by Meggy
What an outrageously talented player he is - love it. Although I find his style quite daunting to contemplate in terms of it's possible influence on my own humble efforts. His lines and chordal stuff are so different I kind of find it hard to know where to start. But I love it, will have to buy a CD I think - any recommendations?
Since I joined this site I have become aware of 3 players especially I had never heard of before: Johnathan Kriesberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, and now John Stowell. How had I never heard these people before? And how many more are there I wonder?
All great players! And yes, there are no doubt at least a few more lurking in the woodworks ... is that the right expression?
I have John's last two solo cds, Resonance and Solitary Tales, both great. Next I'd like to pick up another one he with a trio (from a session that includes Dave Liebman as a guest on a couple of tunes). John also has a couple of instructional videos as downloads on MikesMasterClasses.com. Mike offers some free previews. Good stuff!
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Just had a look at Madaleno on YouTube - he's pretty great too. I like how he plays in a fusion context without turning into a "shread head", his playing remains tasteful with intellegent phrasing and note choice. But I have to say I am a bit blown away by Stowell - one of those amazing discoveries you occasionally have, for me at least. Originally Posted by jonasfixe
Well Meggy, I think there are far more than one human can handle!
Being on this and other lists for a while, sometimes I get deceived to know there are so many good players, that I will never get a chance to get known...
Anyway, I got to know some guitarists that were well worth it.
Kurt Rosenwinkel is great. Check also Pedro Madaleno...
There are indeed a lot of incredible guitarists out there, but I think you have to realise at the same time that these people are actually very rare as a percentage of the total population (or even just as a percentage of all the guitarists out there). It's just that things like the internet bring them all right into your home!
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Cheers for those suggestions gkorm, that gives me a good starting point for the CD's. The more I hear him play, the more I like it. One of my favorite discoveries already I think. Originally Posted by gkorm
Hi Meggy,
All great players! And yes, there are no doubt at least a few more lurking in the woodworks ... is that the right expression?
I have John's last two solo cds, Resonance and Solitary Tales, both great. Next I'd like to pick up another one he with a trio (from a session that includes Dave Liebman as a guest on a couple of tunes). John also has a couple of instructional videos as downloads on MikesMasterClasses.com. Mike offers some free previews. Good stuff!
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Just a thought...seems like your taking a chord and simply taking the key sig. or key of the moment to fill out the rest of the notes. I think there are more options; Your ex. Key of Bb, A7 to D-7, you add b5 and #5, seems like a whole tone collection of notes. I think anyway you look at it, it is some type of modulation, or modal interchange. I understand dominant function, or resolution of the tri-tone, which both Dom. 7th. and min.7b5 chords have, so personally I hear the A7 as a modal interchange chord, A7alt. from 7th degree of molodic min. or 5th degree of harmonic,each spelled accordingly. Seems like in the 50s, 60s and early 70s, one or the other was used, while in the last 20 years, our ears accept using both together. I like your approach to analyzing chord progressions, but after using the melodie, if there is one, I don't think it's quite so black and white, ( certain notes impling only certain other notes ) I think sometimes it can be that simple, but more often there's more going on. This is a great group, and I enjoy being part of the clan. Reg Originally Posted by Patriots2006
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Hi Jazzarian, Originally Posted by Jazzarian
I wasn't implying that the A7 chord was in the key of Bb. A7 is the V of Dm7, (V7 of IIIm7). This was just an example of a possible and common chord progression.Last edited by Patriots2006; 01-09-2010 at 07:38 AM.
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Hi reg, Originally Posted by Reg
In regards to proper notation musicians reading your arrangements need to know what you want. If you notate a chord say, A7#5, the pianist will assume b5 and may comp using this while your sax section may be playing lines/harmonies with the natural 5th and b13. If you notate it as b13 the pianist knows to lay off of the b5 because it is not implied. Put another way, when you notate a chord as #5 or b5 you are actually saying "Alter the fifth of the chord". When you say b13 or #11 you are in essence saying "do not alter the fifth of the chord". Which in turn says that the way you notate the chord symbol does imply other notes.
With regards to improvisation I agree with you 100%. Anything goes as long as it sounds good but the person comping will be laying off of the tensions which in turn allows you "to go where no man has gone before". lol. Or something like that!Last edited by Patriots2006; 01-09-2010 at 07:36 AM.
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Hey Patriots how goes.. Nice points, I gig all the time, play in 3 different big bands, and understand where your coming from, but I hear and see a lot of charts and there are a lot more versions of Dom.7th chords, V7 of Harmonic minor has b9 and b13 ( yes nat. 5th implied), V7 in molodic min. has only b13, also the 7th degree of molodic min. or V7alt, I know it's a min.7b5 if built in 3rds etc... was termed V7Alt at Berklee back in late 60's by calling the notes; 1,3,b5,b7,(b9,#9),no 11,and b13, also the standard 4th degree from Molodic min., V7#11, which is used a lot, ear is starting to become a little worn out, there's also 5th degree of Harmonic maj. with only an altered 9th, b9 and#9, the whole tone version,#11, #5, or b5 and #5 either version is understandable, there's a blues version, #9, (b5 or#11), nat. 13, it starts to get non-traditional from here etc... It would be nice, yea another great tune, as a rhythm section player if the composers would all use the same harmonic notation, yea dream on, at least in the Sher books the chords are spelled out from the " Standard Chord Symbol Notation" by Carl Brandt and Clinton Roemer. I do find that different chart notations do give clues where composers are coming from, and some of those clues lead to certain styles which help the rhythm section to get the groove or feel, which to me is almost more important than the implied tensions. I think I get calls for gigs because of my feel just as much as my sight reading. You only see charts once a lot of the time. Anyway I like your approach and see ya at a gig...Reg Originally Posted by Patriots2006
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Well I can tell you right now your experience based on what I just read surpasses mine by miles. Ths big band thing must be a blast. I'm curious about something. When I was younger I tried out for a big band at the local high school and didn't cut it. The charts had chord changes plastered everywhere. It was like the arrangements for the horns were written and all the voicings were put in chord symbols for a guitar chart. Is that how it really is because I couldn't get through the charts if my life depended on it.
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Hey Patriots... I'm only one of many delusional musicians who have put their time in and still dig playing music, but thanks...Big bands are great for keeping your sight reading chops up and networking with other musicians. I've seen HS BB charts and the composer or arranger usually will not give rhythm section players much freedom,( to bad), I also play with a college BB when I can, no one in the band is in college, most of them are teachers or pros, but charts have a lot more freedom, if you played what's written, the rhythm section can be pretty dead, a good rhythm section will pick up whats should be going on and make it happen. It is a lot of fun and when a BB is groovin, there's not much better to solo over. You do have to be able to read well, guitar plays a lot of single note lines with sax sections... but I think you have to(read) in most jazz bands, even in small group settings, even if just playing the melodie with another instrument, Its hard to remember every tune in every key. If you can read well (it's just a memory aid most of the time if you have a good ear), it dosen't get in the way. It all works I just love to play... Reg Originally Posted by Patriots2006
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Sharp 4th,
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I'd forgotten about this thread, but cheers for your succinct reply! I think it's a #4 too! Originally Posted by musicjohnny
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