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not if the melody note is either of those two. i'm thinking of "take the A train" here, and a bunch of others...
Originally Posted by Patriots2006
flat 5 by itself does not necessarily mean a full altered chord.
ALT implies that all 5ths and 9ths are altered. rarely will it be prudent to play all alterations, but that's what it means.
when i write charts, I write ALT if it's okay to interpret it as such. if i specifically want D7b5, I write D7b5.
when subbing during blowing sections, of course the rules are more flexible, but if someone bothers to write "D7b5" on a chart, it's because they want to hear that flat fifth.
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08-31-2009 08:50 AM
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Good example of a chart this is commonly written without the most accurate spelling. The chord often written as D7 b5 in "A train" is harmonizing a G# in the melody, so it would be more accurate to call it a D7 #11. In that sense, the list of implied chord tones posted by Patriots2006, "#11 implies a natural 5th... etc." still applies. Another example of why we benefit from familiarity with enharmonic spellings! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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D7 #11 for second chord in A train, using Drop D tuning (6th string tuned down to D). Wish I had a 7 string guitar handy, to help find more low note voicings for the rest of the tune! Originally Posted by gkorm
||---|---|---|#11|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--9|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-b7|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
5||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
R||---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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#11 is an available tension on the chord. It isn't the third. Nor is it a sub for the third.
The third has no bearing on what you call the tension note. b5 or #11.
The chord/scale relationship is what does.
Im not sayng the #11 is the 3rd of the chord, the key word is function. I'm refering to how the note would be treated in the context of voiceleading and analysis.
I'm not disagreeing with anything, just presenting the idea that when there is no third in the chord, the #11 then takes over the 3rd function and will be approached and resolved as the 3rd of the chord. The b5 would be the same note functioning as the 5th of the chord. If 3, 5, and #11 are all present the extention should be put in perinthesis or the word "add" used in the symbol.
I'm going on the old voiceleading and orchestration rules that state that a 7th chord has 4 notes (4 voices) and a root. There is no disagreement in terms of the chord/scale relationships. I'm just going back to the original question "when is it #11 and when is it b5" I find this method very usefull in writing and rekoning jazz harmony for large ensambles and groups with no chordal instrument. you don't have to agree with me, im just putting it out there.Last edited by timscarey; 08-31-2009 at 03:23 PM.
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guys, this is really simple, why are we turning it into something that it isn't?
dominant 7th chord: Root, 3, 5, b7
dominant 7b5: R, 3, b5, b7
dominant 7 #11: R, 3, 5, b7, 9, #11
major seventh: R, 3, 5, 7
major7b5: R, 3, b5, 7
major7#11: R, 3, 5, 7, 9, #11
not all notes need to be played in any voicing, but these are the available pool. this is straight from piano theory. pianists also will not necessarily play all of the available notes at any given moment, but this is what's available.
back to my example of "A Train." sit down at a piano and play that second chord with the #11 (b5) on top with and without a perfect 5th below it, and you'll understand why the chord is a D7b5 and not a D7#11 (although if you wrote it that way in a chart, any good player would get it right because they'd dig that the minor second interval between the perfect fifth and the melody note is way too out for a swing tune.
the chord in the original posters example is a maj7#11.
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Thank you, that is a stylistic point and certainly a valid one. Though I think it depends on who your are playing with, and what they like. The example I gave works, at least for me, with a major 7th and an octave between the low 5th and the higher #11th in the melody. Voicing that chord with a minor second, 5th on top, is indeed problematic for me, but again it depends on the stylistic context. Same challenge on a Major 7 chord if the Major 7 is the melody: I would not voice the chord with a minor second on top (root on top the 7th), unless I really wanted a very "edgy" sound. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I believe you may be able to find examples examples of that sound way back into the 40's (the voicing with the wider interval between a low 5th and high #11) -- on that same type of tune, especially if you listen to Ellington, or Monk, or other pianists including Billy Taylor or even Oscar Peterson (who sometimes liked to surprise listeners with his ability to resolve "thick" or sounds).
All this is of course no reason for you to use it if you don't like it, or if the other musicians you play with don't like it. Or even just because it feels too cumbersome for you on the guitar.
Here is another voicing, almost the same, but works in standard tuning (I need my thumb on the 6th string to play this):
||---|---|---|#11|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--9|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|-b7|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|--3|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--R|---|---|---|---|---|---|
||---|---|---|---|--5|---|---|---|---|---|---|
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that's totally funny, because i screwed around and found that voicing and tried it out right before i made my above post!
the other one i tried was
10 12 10 11 9 x
kinda uncomfortable (i did the thumb on the sixth, and i was also able to pull it off barring the three bass strings with my middle finger--but yow--try that on the fly!) and that one helped me come to the conclusion that it was too cluttered for A Train.
it also will be back of brain cataloged for when i want that sound...pretty hip.
overall this has been a good discussion, i'd say.
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Cool thanks! I hadn't thought of that one! Definitely goes into the back of brain -- or back pocket. ; ) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yes, good discussion. These always seem to go longer or farther than we expect.
Best wishes! G
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[CHORD]
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||---|---|---|---|---|---|-3-|---|---|---|---|
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X
[/CHORD]
Or leave off the D on the 6th string.
Regarding A Trane, What's the chart say it is? D7b9 or D7#11? I don;t mean the RB, I mean Duke's chart.
One more thing about the 7b5 , it is a direct inversion of it's own tri-tone.
D7b5 = Ab7b5/E(bb) double flat. Each note in the chord has a corresponding tritone
D-Ab
F#-C
Ab-D
C-F#
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I have a problem with this voicing as a bass player. You've got the natural fifth on the bottom of your voicing. Unless the chart specifies D7#11 (something you seldom see) the bass player is very likely to sub a flat fifth against this chord which is in direct conflict with the A natural on the bottom of your voicing. Especially if you use this as the second chord in "A Train". This is one reason why guitarists and pianists typically drop the roots and natural fifths from their voicings. Originally Posted by gkorm
If you don't work with a bass player then my point is moot.Last edited by John Curran; 08-31-2009 at 08:33 PM.
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Yes I definitely agree! Originally Posted by John Curran
It is a better voicing to use for solo guitar, or when guitar is the only accompaniment, and for those moments when you want to hear the 5th in the bass. Could work other times, but care is needed along with big ears to hear the context and result. If we listen, we learn when when it does and does not work.
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Hi Meggy and all,
It would be interesting to know what is the context of that chord on the first post. What is the chord sequence that leads to it? Maybe the author had some reason for calling it a b5...
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This whole discussion has been very interesting and illuminating to me, thanks to everyone who has been involved. I tend to agree after reading through (and thinking about) everything that my original chord is indeed best described as a maj7#11. Although it does not have a ninth, so if it DID, would it be better described as a maj9#11? (looking at mr. beaumont's list he includes the 9th for a maj7#11) - probably this is a trivial point but just to be clear. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Cheers again guys!
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Hi Meggy, Originally Posted by Meggy
I believe the short answer is yes!
Just in case anyone wants it, here comes a long answer.
I believe there is a standard that many though not all subscribe to, when writing chord charts: the highest chord tone listed in the chord implies all the lower chord tones, built up in thirds, associated with that chord.
To explain, when you have a full Major 7 chord, the available chord tones and extensions include
the basic 7th chord (1 - 3 - 5 - 7) and the higher chord tones (9 - #11 - 13).
So by this method, the the C maj triad has only the chord tones 1 - 3 - 5
name: "C Maj" or simply "C"
Building up more complexity we have:
C Maj 6 or C 6 = 1 3 5 6
C Maj 7 = 1 3 5 7 (historically this has often implied the 6 as well, even though it is not part of the lower stack of thirds -- same for next two chords)
C Maj 9 includes 1 3 5 7 9
C Maj #11 includes 1 3 5 7 9 #11
C Maj 13 includes 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13
alterations may be included as well:
C Maj 7 #5 = 1 3 #5 7
C Maj 9 #5 = 1 3 #5 7 9
Improvising musicians will take advantage of there own understanding of the harmonic possibilities implied in the chord or in the context of the composition and add or take away chord tones as they choose. However, when writing a chart you may specify exactly what you want by including "add" or "no" as in the following examples:
C Maj (add 9) or C add 9 = 1 3 5 9
C Maj 6 (add 9 #11) or C 6 (add 9 #11) = 1 3 5 6 9 #11
C Maj (add #11) = 1 3 5 #11
C Maj 7 (add #11) (no 3rd)
actually this last one results in the chord you originally asked about!
C 5 (no 3rd) -- the infamous "Power Chord" just two chord tones 1 and 5
Some prefer to write out the voicings if they really want to be that specific, especially if it is a more unusual chord.
Some prefer to keep it as simple as possible and let the reading musicians use their best judgement.
Hope all this helps.Last edited by gkorm; 09-01-2009 at 01:01 PM.
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Great information, thanks very much for the very detailed answer. So, in the context of my original chord, I could write either maj7#11 or to be very clear: maj7(add#11). But if I write just maj#11 then that would imply the presence of the 9th also? Originally Posted by gkorm
Hi Meggy,
I believe the short answer is yes!
Just in case anyone wants it, here comes a long answer.
I believe there is a standard that many though not all subscribe to, when writing chord charts: the highest chord tone listed in the chord implies all the lower chord tones, built up in thirds, associated with that chord.
To explain, when you have a full Major 7 chord, the available chord tones and extensions include
the basic 7th chord (1 - 3 - 5 - 7) and the higher chord tones (9 - #11 - 13).
So by this method, the the C maj triad has only the chord tones 1 - 3 - 5
name: "C Maj" or simply "C"
Building up more complexity we have:
C Maj 6 or C 6 = 1 3 5 6
C Maj 7 = 1 3 5 7 (historically this has often implied the 6 as well, even though it is not part of the lower stack of thirds -- same for next two chords)
C Maj 9 includes 1 3 5 7 9
C Maj #11 includes 1 3 5 7 9 #11
C Maj 13 includes 1 3 5 7 9 #11 13
alterations may be included as well:
C Maj 7 #5 = 1 3 #5 7
C Maj 9 #5 = 1 3 #5 7 9
Improvising musicians will take advantage of there own understanding of the harmonic possibilities implied in the chord or in the context of the composition and add or take away chord tones as they choose. However, when writing a chart you may specify exactly what you want by including "add" or "no" as in the following examples:
C Maj (add 9) or C add 9 = 1 3 5 9
C Maj 6 (add 9 #11) or C 6 (add 9 #11) = 1 3 5 6 9 #11
C Maj (add #11) = 1 3 5 #11
C Maj 7 (add #11) (no 3rd)
actually this last one results in the chord you originally asked about!
C 5 (no 3rd) -- the infamous "Power Chord" just two chord tones 1 and 5
Some prefer to write out the voicings if they really want to be that specific, especially if it is a more unusual chord.
Some prefer to keep it as simple as possible and let the reading musicians use their best judgement.
Hope all this helps.
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09-01-2009, 02:30 PM #41Jazzarian GuestThe key of Bb Major doesn't have an A7. It has an Am7b5 (A C Eb G). Originally Posted by Patriots2006
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Welcome! Originally Posted by Meggy
Yes I would interpret it that way, as an option for the player.So, in the context of my original chord, I could write either maj7#11 or to be very clear: maj7(add#11). But if I write just maj#11 then that would imply the presence of the 9th also?
However, since your original chord does not have a 3rd in it, and if that is really what you want to specify, you might need to write Maj7 (add #11) (no 3rd). Yet that may be a lot to write out and to read, more than what is usually asked for in a chord chart. I would actually write the voicing out on the staff if I really wanted a very specific arrangement or choice of chord tones. More often I want my players to have some freedom in interpreting the chords, so I try to keep it simple and have chord symbols that suggest the most obvious family of chord tones they can choose from.
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Yes true, A m7 b5 is the chord that is *diatonic* to the key of Bb major. Originally Posted by Jazzarian
However, there are extended harmonies -- secondary dominants, modal substitions, etc. that can still be heard as part of the key. Not just the 7 notes of the major scale. Depends on how expansive your ears can be. A7 alt dom does not necessarily have to have to sound like a key change in Bb major.
Great stuff to explore!
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Sorry jonasfixe, I have only just seen your post. Maybe he did have a reason for calling it a b5, but the chord is not presented as part of a sequence, just on it's own as a shape to learn. So in that sense I still think #11 is a better description. Originally Posted by jonasfixe
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Thanks, Meggy. Originally Posted by Meggy
Anyway, I would not use it as a #11 chord, because of the #11 next to the perfect 5th, and because it lacks the third. 3rd and 7th are the most important tones in a chord...
That chord could be an F# 7 b9 b13:
||---|---|---|---|---|---|--
||---|---|b13|---|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|---|-5-|--
||---|---|---|-1-|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|b13|---|--
||---|---|b9-|---|---|---|--
Which in the tonality of B major is an acceptable V chord.
If it sounds nice resolving to B maj7, I would bet on that.
It could also be a Em 6 9, which also could sound good next to G maj as a vi chord:
||---|---|---|---|---|---|--
||---|---|b7-|---|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|---|-6-|--
||---|---|---|-9-|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|b7-|---|--
||---|---|b3-|---|---|---|--
There are a lot of other possibilities, but it depends on what chords does this one sounds nice with (context is all, you know...)
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Try using that chord without the 5th on top (1 - 5 - 7 - #11). I like the two major 7th intervals a fifth apart -- or two fifths a major 7th apart! Originally Posted by jonasfixe
||---|---|---|---|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|---|-4-|--
||---|---|---|-2-|---|---|--
||---|---|---|---|-3-|---|--
||---|---|-1-|---|---|---|--
Good to see all those other possibilities you shared. Takes time to work them out. It is worth finding what a voicing sounds like over all 12 possible bass notes.
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I will try as soon as I get to my guitar! Maybe after I try I heve some other opinion... Originally Posted by gkorm
Thanks
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Thanks for clarifying gkorm, I think I have got it now! Although I had not really considered the no 3rd issue particularly (it's just chance that the chord example I picked doesn't have one). So I'll try to find a few voicings with and without the 3rd to see how the quality changes. Obviously the major 3rd is normally considered necessary to give a major chord sound, but also there is the context of use I guess. Originally Posted by gkorm
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Some good points and thanks for pointing out these interesting other possibilities jonasfixe. It is amazing how what seemed like a simple initial question has produced so much material for me to consider. I respect your not wanting to use the voicing in it's maj7#11 context, although I have to say I quite like the sound of the perfect 5th and sharp 11 next to each other, plus I don't mind the lack of a major 3rd either. Maybe I just have weird ears or something! Although such differences of taste are one of the things that makes us all unique, which is important. Originally Posted by jonasfixe
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[CHORD]
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Here's one for you that has all the good stuff in the ma7#11
C x B E (open) F# G
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