Guide to MODAL Progressions???

[GuitarGuy]

Can modal 3-4 chord progressions be made by simply I IV V within the mode or is the modal progression a name for a two chord vamp?

In pop music there is often the bVII in the chord progression, but does that make it a modal progression or just a standard key chord progression with a borrowed chord from Mixolydian?

[GuitarGuy]

bump

[christianm77]

Can modal 3-4 chord progressions be made by simply I IV V within the mode or is the modal progression a name for a two chord vamp?

In pop music there is often the bVII in the chord progression, but does that make it a modal progression or just a standard key chord progression with a borrowed chord from Mixolydian?

I think it would depend on the tune. One example that comes to mind is the bridge to Sittin' on the Dock of the Bay (Otis Redding.)

G D C
G D C
G D C
F D

Here the F chord is clearly a borrowed chord from G mixolydian, but clearly the whole progression is leaning towards C lydian in any case.

We then use a conventional dominant to return to G for the rest of the song. Actually the whole song is an interesting mix of functional and non-functional progressions, as are many pop/rock/soul tunes of the era.

In any case I think with this era of music the harmony is heavily influenced by pentatonic melody and root movement. In the case of pentatonic melody you have no 7th expressly given so the use of a leading or flat 7th is somewhat open. You also have modal interchange between major and minor pentatonic.

In traditional folk music from the Britain and Ireland, the bVII-I cadence was pretty common - you can find it way back int he 16th century. So that's pre tonal, and probably a big influence on pop/rock too....

In terms of modal jazz progressions, I think its a bit different.

[GuitarGuy]

THanks for the reply. I get that the bVII (borrowed from Mixolydian) can be found all over pop and rock music. ACDC, mostly in E, always features a D5 or D chord. BTW Why do our ears prefer the D chord in rock in the key of E?

I did search the internet since I wasnt getting any bites here for a long while. I see the if there are rules for setting a modal mood for a song or bridge or interlude, it is common to feature the stand-out chords over the key note in a vamp or 3-4 chords. I found one method of simple arranging all the modes unique character in Roman Numerals (nothing new) but ALL group this way side by side for comparison. The instructor then grouped minor and major and the character of each chord per mode through each degree. Then selecting which mode had at least one chord whose character was unique to that degree within the grouping. In this way, the typical i bII III progression for Phrygian was not the only progression to showcase the feel of Phrygian within a chord progression.

It would be great someone could drop some knowledge in the form of common modal progressions from Dorian to Aeolian!!!

[docsteve]

I should think that "modal progression" is a sort of contradiction in terms. A progression goes somewhere, a mode remains static even if the underlying chords change.

BTW AC/DC will probably think that Mixolydian is some weird drink...

[christianm77]

I should think that "modal progression" is a sort of contradiction in terms. A progression goes somewhere, a mode remains static even if the underlying chords change.

BTW AC/DC will probably think that Mixolydian is some weird drink...

I think bVII-I has a sense of going somewhere.

The way tell if something has a sense of progression I suppose if to play it backwards and see if it radically alters the feeling of the harmony.

In fact now I think about it, I remember a story about Steve Cropper doing this with the intro to Midnight Hour to get the riff to Knock on Wood.

V IV bIII I --> I bIII IV V

Well that's the blues scale in parallel major chords. Nothing conventionally functional about it... Typical guitar harmony, in fact!

But there are many cases of chord progressions that don't follow the traditional rules and yet have a sense of tonal resolution.

Blues/rock/soul/pop harmony is an interesting side issue though... Poorly understood (I think) because mostly the people who wrote this stuff weren't using any theory to come up with the chords. I'm sure many academic papers have been written on it after the fact...

[ragman1]

Can modal 3-4 chord progressions be made by simply I IV V within the mode or is the modal progression a name for a two chord vamp?

In pop music there is often the bVII in the chord progression, but does that make it a modal progression or just a standard key chord progression with a borrowed chord from Mixolydian?

I'm afraid I don't really understand the question! However, I do know that modes can produce serious confusion in almost anybody (including me).

Basically, it's a matter of harmonising the scale and thereby producing the modes for that scale. The issue is whether it works musically or not. Often it doesn't, simple as that.

Probably the most commonly used mode is the Dorian. And there are two ways of approaching it. One is using C as your basis. In that case you'd play in Bb major using C as your root note and Cm7 as your tonic chord. So the first chord would be Cm7, the second one Dm7, etc. Personally I find this approach highly confusing and don't use it.

The other is using the C scale (nice and easy) as your base. In that case your Dorian chord would be Dm7. Playing the C scale with D as your root produces the Dorian mode. The chords then follow nicely: Dm7, Em7, FM7, G7, Am7, Bm7b5, CM7. All from the C major scale.

All the other chords (and keys) then have their equivalent sequences - if you can remember them. It's hell, no question about it.

But the real issue is that, by default, all modes except the Ionian produce an unresolved sound and feeling. Consequently they can't be used in the same way as the Ionian, the standard major harmony. For that reason generally only selected chords are used in certain modes and some modes aren't used at all. The Locrian is probably the least used because it produces the most unresolved feel of all.

There are exceptions to all this, though, and some musicians/composers have braved the challenge.

So the idea is to use the chords available to produce acceptable progressions. You can easily google example tunes in the various modes. It goes something like:

Dorian - 'So What', Miles Davis.
Phrygian - 'Solea', Gil Evans.
Lydian - usually used within other compositions rather than by itself.
Mixolydian - Bach used it, don't know about jazz. Also traditional folk music.
Aeolian - Bob Dylan used it for 'All Along The Watchtower'. I suppose you could jazz that up!
Locrian - There are some examples in folk and classical music.

So you can see, despite a lot of talk about modal playing, there aren't many jazz examples.

Here's a list of chords available in each mode. Take what you like and create what you think sounds all right! Note that the 5 chord changes each time. That's quite important. In my example below it starts with Em and bar 4 (of 8) is Bm7b5. It gives it structure.

C Ionian: CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5
D Dorian: Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 CM7
E Phrygian: Em7 FM7 G7 A7 Bm7b5 CM7 Dm7
F Lydian: FM7 G7 Am7 Bm7b5 CM7 Dm7 Em7
G Mixolydian: G7 Am7 Bm7b5 CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7
C Aeolian: Am7 Bm7b5 CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7
C Locrian: Bm7b5 CM7 Dm7 Em7 FM7 G7 Am7

Here's bit of fun. It's in Em but in Phyrygian mode, i.e. not in E minor/G major. The first bit uses only the C major scale over chords in C major. The second one uses different modes over the same changes. Anything can be done :-)

[Robertkoa]

I think bVII-I has a sense of going somewhere.

The way tell if something has a sense of progression I suppose if to play it backwards and see if it radically alters the feeling of the harmony.

In fact now I think about it, I remember a story about Steve Cropper doing this with the intro to Midnight Hour to get the riff to Knock on Wood.

V IV bIII I --> I bIII IV V

Well that's the blues scale in parallel major chords. Nothing conventionally functional about it... Typical guitar harmony, in fact!

But there are many cases of chord progressions that don't follow the traditional rules and yet have a sense of tonal resolution.

Blues/rock/soul/pop harmony is an interesting side issue though... Poorly understood (I think) because mostly the people who wrote this stuff weren't using any theory to come up with the chords. I'm sure many academic papers have been written on it after the fact...

True ...the Beatles are often quoted in 20th Century Harmony ...Cadence and Progression Examples.

And didn't Berkelee have a Steely Dan Harmony Course at one time ?

Pop and Rock ...generally stopped Modulating as much as in the Era of Standards.

And the b VII chord is HUGE in Rock both as a ' Backdoor ' V AND as a IV of IV to IV to I- on hundreds of Tunes


I used to wonder ..."why did Standards and Jazz use the ii - V- I and the ii°- V- i so MUCH and so often ?"

One answer I came up with is-

Despite occasional Brilliance in Composition- this
Progression or Cadence is SO STRONG that you can

Lego the ii- V- Is together in almost ANY Transposition Interval for Modulating Sequences ( or Diatonic Sequences )and it will fit together with very little arranging skill required !

Like a Bricklayer versus a Sculptor- SURE - IF you have the skills or inspiration you can use them -

BUT the wall will still stand up even with rudimentary skills...and as a Songwriter rudimentary skills with
ii - V - Is make it MUCH easier to create interesting
Bridges etc. As well as making it much more challenging for the Improviser.

There are other Cadences that are strong but for Lego Song Structures..hard to beat the ii- V- I ...

Although it sounds ' Country ' to me when the Soloist lands on the Root of the I chord in improv. in a Major ii- V- I .

You used this Term on another Thread - good observation.....nice References on early R&B ..on this one..'.Gimme Some Lovin ' with similar Progression but during the Hook.
Spencer Davis Group was so badass..

'Respect' with King Curtis on Jazz Sax Solo..
Grapevine by Marvin Gaye etc etc

I hope to Expand not these songs but similar Vibes in Modulating Structures and more sophisticated Rhythmically/ Harmonically..but retaining the Rawness..the diametric opoposite of Smooth Jazz..though I like Norman Brown ..I am glad they are so mellow- I am not...lol.

And despite their Picking Skills a lot of GJ sounds Country as well like Jazz Bluegrass- due to the restricted Voicings and Rhythms on most of the Repertoire...I predict that they are going to expand it to fully use their Skills or branch out into other Music like Bireli has....

And I never liked I -vi- ii- V R&B , doo wop etc. I like the rougher R&B and the expanded R&B more- Stevie Wonder had a good I- vi- ii- V but still not as dramatic for me ...maybe cleverly disguised and chromaticized but-

The real Genius of Jazz...besides Improv. Was/ Is
adding in Tritone Subs so it turned at will these Structures into 20th and 21st Century Chromaticism
and adding Blues Feel to non Blues Structures...and possibly Rock was even better at this..
And Modes and Modal Interchange Harmonically which were happening already in Classical but harder to Jam on Classical...lol.

That's my thinking so far as I gradually get my head above water Theory- Wise - subject to change of course..

What did I miss?

I am experimenting with Progressions that resolve the Tritone differently not to the Root or Two Roots of the Destination Chord but to different chordal degrees- which can still sound Inside or even Pop- but creates fairly strong progressions to escape from endless Circle of Fifths or Fourths ...which was what I thought Negative Harmony was...

[ragman1]

Just to be a nuisance, here's a blues in Locrian. Why not, as it's impossible. Note usual iv chord, bar 5, and V chord, bar 10.

Bm7b5 - Em7 - Bm7b5 - %
Em7 - % - Bm7b5 - %
CM7 - FM7 - Bm7b5 - (FM7)

Can't use the Cm blues but can use the C major blues, i.e. C maj + b3, b5, b7.

[Robertkoa]

Interesting Ragman- sounds cool like Brazilian (?)almost Blues !

I like it. From description I expected it to be 'outside'
Sounding but it's not ...cool.
Now I have to understand it ...lol.

Classical Theory teaches that the vii° chord - Minor 7b5 which is in your example..
Can NOT be tonicized
but in Jazz can the Minor 7b5 be Tonicized- is it common I mean to do this ?

It can when it's a Minor 6th chord - but that's different- or is it ?

I use a Minor 11 b5 so it has the b3 and 11th and the b5th Root and b7 and CAN be Tonicized..

[christianm77]

True ...the Beatles are often quoted in 20th Century Harmony ...Cadence and Progression Examples.

And didn't Berkelee have a Steely Dan Harmony Course at one time ?

Pop and Rock ...generally stopped Modulating as much as in the Era of Standards.

And the b VII chord is HUGE in Rock both as a ' Backdoor ' V AND as a IV of IV to IV to I- on hundreds of Tunes


I used to wonder ..."why did Standards and Jazz use the ii - V- I and the ii°- V- i so MUCH and so often ?"

One answer I came up with is-

Despite occasional Brilliance in Composition- this
Progression or Cadence is SO STRONG that you can

Lego the ii- V- Is together in almost ANY Transposition Interval for Modulating Sequences ( or Diatonic Sequences )and it will fit together withvery little arranging skill required !

Pretty much. The ii-V-I is a legacy of common practice harmony (Bach, Mozart etc.)

The obsession with ii-V-I's actually starts post war though. Many of the original harmonies for standards use fewer ii-V-I's than have become customary. I think ii-V's really came into vogue around the 1950s.

Barry Harris has a big anti II-V-I rant, and actually it's short cut harmony. But the rules of functional harmony allow for many more interesting and nuanced variations. In jazz these are often understood through 'chord substityution' although there are other approaches.

Like a Bricklayer versus a Sculptor- SURE - IF you have the skills or inspiration you can use them -

BUT the wall will still stand up even with rudimentary skills...and as a Songwriter rudimentary skills with
ii - V - Is make it MUCH easier to create interesting
Bridges etc. As well as making it much more challenging for the Improviser.

There are other Cadences that are strong but for Lego Song Structures..hard to beat the ii- V- I ...

Although it sounds ' Country ' to me when the Soloist lands on the Root of the I chord in improv. in a Major ii- V- I .

I think this is often misunderstood. 'Don't end a phrase on 1.'

In fact the 1 is used as a phrase ending ALL THE TIME, it's just that it needs to be understood in terms of effect. I think of it as a 'period' as opposed to the comma 3 or a 5 or the semicolon, say of ending on a 2 or a 7.

Different levels of tension for phrase ends. Grammar and sentence construction. Check bebop heads for examples.

You used this Term on another Thread - good observation.....nice References on early R&B ..on this one..'.Gimme Some Lovin ' with similar Progression but during the Hook.
Spencer Davis Group was so badass..

'Respect' with King Curtis on Jazz Sax Solo..
Grapevine by Marvin Gaye etc etc

I hope to Expand not these songs but similar Vibes in Modulating Structures and more sophisticated Rhythmically/ Harmonically..but retaining the Rawness..the diametric opoposite of Smooth Jazz..though I like Norman Brown ..I am glad they are so mellow- I am not...lol.

And despite their Picking Skills a lot of GJ sounds Country as well like Jazz Bluegrass- due to the restricted Voicings and Rhythms on most of the Repertoire...I predict that they are going to expand it to fully use their Skills or branch out into other Music like Bireli has....

The string band tradition was already venerable by the time Django came on the scene. The rhythmic feel of authentic GJ players is somewhat different to American jazz (even of the 30s & 40s) but to my ears it is very different to Western swing.

Country guitar players have very different articulation to GJ soloists. The two step Polka style rhythm and alternating bass is obviously common - but this is very widespread through European and North American music. Polka was big in the 19th century.

There is a crossover, obviously.

And I never liked I -vi- ii- V R&B , doo wop etc. I like the rougher R&B and the expanded R&B more- Stevie Wonder had a good I- vi- ii- V but still not as dramatic for me ...maybe cleverly disguised and chromaticized but-

The real Genius of Jazz...besides Improv. Was/ Is
adding in Tritone Subs so it turned at will these Structures into 20th and 21st Century Chromaticism
and adding Blues Feel to non Blues Structures...and possibly Rock was even better at this..
And Modes and Modal Interchange Harmonically which were happening already in Classical but harder to Jam on Classical...lol.

That's my thinking so far as I gradually get my head above water Theory- Wise - subject to change of course..

What did I miss?

Well the real genius of jazz was the introduction of West African diaspora rhythm into Western popular music, but that is now commonplace in all genres of pop, so gets overlooked, along with the development of the rhythm section, drum set, etc.

Anyway we see jazz harmony as a thing because it is relatively functional, complicated and chromatic compared to modern pop harmony.

For example, II-V-I's, I-IV7-I's, I-VI-II-V-I's etc are not jazz harmony per se, they are just functional harmony. It's just that popular music has moved onto less functional based progressions like the ones discussed here (the functional ones sound old fashioned), so it's kind of now associated with jazz, while every style of pop music has some sort of real or simulated drum set.

Looking backwards gives a distorted picture.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's some modal stuff in rock styles, but there's also kind of just a rock harmonization of blues as well. I think that's what Christian said maybe? Anyway, there are combinations of the two as well I'm sure.

Sweet Home Alabama chords are D mixolydian looking, but the song's melody says blues. There's not an F# in the melody anywhere that I remember . Basically rock harmonization of blues. Lot of that with the Beatles as well and throughout rock tunes. Again, I think there's plenty of true modal as well.

[christianm77]

Eleanor Rigby is Dorian
Norwegian Wood is Mixolydian

[christianm77]

TBH thinking about it, when I think of 'Modal chord progressions' in jazz, I'm normally thinking of non functional (or not traditionally functional chord progressions) in jazz that one solos over in a primarily modal way... So:

So What
Little Sunflower
Maiden Voyage
Inner Urge
Havona

These tunes involve different chord qualities/modes with the chords moving in various, not obviously functional, ways. None of them are constrained by a single mode. You would solo over them using the appropriate mode for the chord quality and

A tune can obviously incorporate functional and non functional elements, too:
Beatrice
Yes or No
Speak no Evil
Recorda Me

But tunes with a purely modal basis? The only one I can think of right away is Afro Blue.

I think modal progressions are more common in various folk/world musics and in pop.

Rick Beato's video (impressive ears!) show him soloing over a modal pop/rock style progression and a non functional jazz progression.

[ragman1]

Now I have to understand it ...lol.

Nothing special, just a 12-bar in Locrian and C major with 'blue' notes.

Classical Theory teaches that the vii° chord - Minor 7b5 which is in your example..
Can NOT be tonicized

Wouldn't know. Don't care :-) If it works, it works.

but in Jazz can the Minor 7b5 be Tonicized- is it common I mean to do this ?

I don't see why 'jazz' should have its own rules. It's all music. I don't know if it's common. I doubt it, though, because the vii is very unresolved. I got round it a bit by using a lot of E's over the Bm7b5, turning it into a Bm9b5 :-)

The other thing I discovered is that the b5 note (Gb/F#) worked practically anywhere. In fact the natural F sounds lame.

It can when it's a Minor 6th chord - but that's different- or is it ?

Well, Summertime uses a m6 as the tonic. Also ?Corcovado and doubtless other tunes too.

[Robertkoa]

Yeah..I don't care about rules...But you did get 'around the slight instability' by adding the E notes...I am not that clever as an improviser so I need to add the 11th on the Voicing as part of the Chord - lol.
I like targeting the 4th on minor 7th chords when I Solo, though even when not present in the Chord.

I mean I NEVER think about ( stabilizing the Chord I am Playing over ) I understand you probably did this instinctively (!)..but as Clint Eastwood said ..
'A man's got to know his limitations' haha.
My Tech limitations are very few...but conceptually I have to keep it fairly simple to produce Music.
My chords must be prestabilized!

So I use B - F-A -D-E-A which I call a Minor 11b5 and it makes a modern ii -V- I effect when starting on a Bmin11- then Bmin11b5 - Amaj7

Also I am doing R&B Fusion so what can be Tonicized is slightly different from some Modern Jazz but certainly not Gershwin ( that was Pop ! )

Or the Min11b5 can be the ii° in a Minor ii- V- i

And it works as a 'dirty ' or 'dark' Minor Chord for Blues as The i or iv - which I hadn't given much thought before .For Composers this is really good stuff.Thanks.

[dasein]

"Either/or" fallacies are a big problem with jazz education. Something is either great and always works, or something is terrible and never works.

Modes didn't help you play over "You'd Be So Nice to Come Home To" or another tin alley standard? "Modes are terrible, and they're a waste of time!"

Spend most of your time listening to Wayne Shorter and Gary Burton? "Modes are essential, and you can't play jazz without them!"

Something is useful if it helps your understanding (of a tune, of improvisation, of whatever). If it doesn't aid your understanding, it's probably not that useful. BUT it might be useful for other things. Context is important.

For tunes with mostly functional harmony, I don't think you generally need to think modes. You can, but many find it's more trouble than it's worth. The bVII to I example is a good one. Does modal thinking REALLY help you understand this cadence better? Maybe a bit, but not much.

On the other hand, modes are essential for a good portion of the jazz repertoire starting at about '59 or so. And it is sizable. If your repertoire is limited to Cole Porter and Gershwin tunes, again, modes probably aren't necessary. But to play a lot of the non-functional repertoire usually requires a good understanding of modes, and that tends to be the stuff that good players will call when they get tired of rhythm changes and blues. I'll put it this way: I would not try to make it in NYC without an understanding of modes, unless you intend to limit yourself to the hardcore bebop scene.

Modal interchange can bridge the gap between modal thinking and functional harmony. Reg has numerous posts here about all that, and I encourage everyone to read up on them.

[christianm77]

I agree with daesin although I'm not sure what his post was in response to.

Anyway, specific types of material require specific approaches. I find myself playing middle eastern repertoire in a jazz context. That stuff is really modal - I.e. no harmony.

It might be worth pointing out that the jazz conception of modes or chord/scales is quite uniquely jazz and doesn't really bear much relationship to technically modal music - such as the Indian traditions or middle eastern, which have no harmony.

The use of a mode as a resource for harmony in the context of a progression of other mode/chords is really very jazz, although I'm sure there are some examples in contemporary music.

And I might add that the modal era of jazz is now half the entire history of jazz.

[matt.guitarteacher]

And here we go to Em, A, Fm, B - so it's not really a mixolydian progression.

Just putting these in context of the OP.

edit: my attempt to quote, failed. The 1st of my reply part is in the box with Christian's post.

To edit: Move the end quote (in brackets after "mixolydian") to the end of Christian's quote. (Cut and paste it).

[ragman1]

Yeah..I don't care about rules...

Oh, I do, otherwise there's chaos. What I don't care for are superfluous rules. Who says in music you can't do this or that? Like I said, if it sounds right, it's right. If it sounds good, it's good. And if I hear something that touches me I don't care if it breaks every 'rule' in the book. Why should I? Why should anybody? What's going to happen? The music police come round and torture us? I don't think so.

But you did get 'around the slight instability' by adding the E notes

I did it by accident. I found myself on an E and realised it sounded good. But I wasn't trying to make the m b5 sound as though it wasn't one! It's still a minor b5 chord, there's no difference. It didn't change the harmony. It's like playing an A over a C chord so it sounds like C6. So what?

So I use B-F-A-D-E-A

Exactly, same thing. It's still a minor b5 chord.

I understand you probably did this instinctively (!)

No, by accident, probably because I was thinking Em from habit! But I didn't do it every time. Thank goodness :-)

[ragman1]

I should think that "modal progression" is a sort of contradiction in terms. A progression goes somewhere, a mode remains static even if the underlying chords change.

I agree with that. Sure, I can harmonise the C maj scale and put the vii at the beginning and end etc etc but I'm still playing C major over it. Whether that could be called modal playing is highly debatable.

Very good point.

[Robertkoa]

I agree with that. Sure, I can harmonise the C maj scale and put the vii at the beginning and end etc etc but I'm still playing C major over it. Whether that could be called modal playing is highly debatable.

Very good point.

I am wondering the same thing because I am learning about Jazz to cover Theory Gaps ..and to use in Composition ..
So I 'short- cut' Modes into Parent Keys so if I want D Dorian I am going to play C major stuff and since the
Cmajor scale is in alphabetical order and the notes are all scrunched up together ( ' scrunched' is a very advanced Theory term) I might use the I ,IV ,and V,
Pentatonics and their Relative Minors so I have more safe spots and then I will target all the cool extensions in the Chord and the Root 3rd and 5th etc.
So is that Modal Playing ?
IF I can get it to sound or feel good - that's what counts- but is it or not ?

Coltrane on ' My Favorite Things' -amazing Vibe and Playing - that sounds Modal to me - is it ?

[ragman1]

So I 'short- cut' Modes into Parent Keys so if I want D Dorian I am going to play C major stuff and since the
Cmajor scale is in alphabetical order and the notes are all scrunched up together ( ' scrunched' is a very advanced Theory term) I might use the I ,IV ,and V,
Pentatonics and their Relative Minors so I have more safe spots and then I will target all the cool extensions in the Chord and the Root 3rd and 5th etc.
So is that Modal Playing ?

Yes, because when the Dm chord is functioning as the 1 chord you'd expect to see chords like Dm, Gm, A7, etc etc, and play D harmonic minor over them. (I'm being very basic).

But when that usual structure is abandoned and the chords become merely a background for improvisation using anything that works, I'd call that modal. Over that Dm you could play C maj (Dorian), Bb maj (Phrygian), F maj (Aeolian), etc etc.

In folk music they were doing this long ago, of course. Whole tunes were written in Dorian, Mixolydian, and all that. 'Scarborough Fair' is Dorian, for example.

Jazz-wise, it was all pretty standard till they started to experiment with modal sounds (see 'So What', et al).

Coltrane on ' My Favorite Things' -amazing Vibe and Playing - that sounds Modal to me - is it ?

'My Favorite Things' is in Em/G major, one sharp, and uses all the chords you'd expect - Em, F#m7b5, B7, C, G, Am, D7, etc etc.

But if the vamp at the beginning uses Em/F#m (not F#m7b5) then it's become modal because of the C#. It's Dorian because it implies the D maj scale.

[matt.guitarteacher]

There's a lot more to modal than simply pitch collections, chords, and where things begin or end.

There are some really good older threads on this stuff. Do a forum search on terms "modal" and "characteristic pitch", and user name: "Reg".

A lot of discussion on pure modal and then, more on playing modal over traditional functional tunes as well.

[Robertkoa]

Thanks Matt and Ragman-Christian etc.Also- I am curious how to determine Scarborough Fair, Norwegian Wood , etc. as being in a certain Mode based on the Chords .

Long ago I did Guitar Arrangements but not Solo Guitar - of Simon &Garfunkel/ Beatles and other'Acoustic Rock' for 2 Guitars kind of like Cat Stevens and Alun Davies- but more sophisticated but still Top 40 ish and not Jazz - and I did not know what Modes the Beatle Tunes were in - lol.
The other Guitarist had a nearly 3 Octave Voice Range( !) - so he could do' Moonshadow' then do ' Maybe I'm Amazed' in the Original Keys - very rare.I was the Alun Davies guy..not the "Star".
But I did not know which Mode The Tunes were in-And I don't know now - ha.
So I can choose a Mode for Soloing purposes - but I don't have separate fingerings for them ( nor do I care about playing from D to D specifically).

1)BUT - when you do a Harmonic Analysis - what 'tells' you the Mode of the Tune- ? As a Soloist there are Parent Keys for Blues for example and one Scale I do actually play is II Harmonic Minor ( especially in Blues because it goes from the 9th to the 9th of the C.O.M. ) and V Harmonic Minor - so those I Play Verbatim sometimes.

.But I am more Vertical than 'Scale ' oriented especially in my thinking..Leading to my next question.


-Remembering that the only reason I might ' constrain to Mode ' while Soloing is for a certain 'Vibe ' and the Modes are often similar sounding anyway
....BUT :how to arpeggiate and Play Vertcally and 'Constrain to Mode ' .
For example : I might be Soloing on an Amin 9 - So Vertically playing Gmajor Arps and Dminor Arps but 'targeting' Aminor 9 Chordal Degrees - I would call this Dorian..If I did the same using Fmajor and Gminor - I should get Phrygian although looks like the Dminor arp is enharmonic to both Modes but the upper extensions of the Dmin Arp would constrain to Parent Key =Fmajor for Phrgian --correct ?