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It's a wonder we ever get round to playing anything, isn't it, in case it's 'wrong' :-)
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06-14-2017 02:30 PM
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C7alt(nat5)There should be another chord symbol for the alt chord without a b5!
Not perfect, but gets the job done.
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And what do we make of this?
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~m...tken_davis.pdf
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I make of it that this particular term paper is everything I hate about jazz education condensed into a few pages.
Originally Posted by ragman1
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In a way I agree, because academic analyses are tiresome. Otoh, I don't see what's wrong with it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
For a start he's got the chords right. It's not A7b9#9b5#5b13#11 etc etc, it's just A7b9. I like that :-)
Also, if one's interested in what they're actually playing, it makes it all a lot simpler because the themes are clarified... etc etc. So I don't see much harm in it really. In fact it's informative.
I mean, did you know the intro was just an FM7 arpeggio?
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I can't justify anything the author said but it was me who said FM7. I was going to put (9) but didn't. They do make it clear where the FM7 bit begins: Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
"It begins on the third chord
(the tonic, Dm7) of the sequence and plays out the remaining chords. The melodic
content is simple: an arpeggiated FM7 chord (ex. 2)."
See, I suspect the players weren't that used to modal playing. Miles was basically using extensions over the chords rather than a lot of fancy stuff. The tune is just solid D dorian (C major) but soloing over the Dm they did what we always do, use D harm and/or D mel. Many players may use the C# going up but a C natural later, it kind of sounds right and is also classical practice, I believe.
I just a bit wary of suggesting these guys have some kind of musical super-power and play stuff beyond our understanding. There's too much putting on pedestals. They're human, and occasionally play great stuff, but fundamentally they're just playing by the same old rules like we all do. Only better :-)
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I dunno, seems like a good paper.
I suppose I'd rather listen to stuff myself and see what I notice rather than read a paper, but I do like it when people point out one or two things they've heard in music themselves.
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Nice example - I missed the first one. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
Notice how Bill voice leads into the 9th of the following Dm chord.
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yeah..watching paint dry! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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In your opinion (and mine FWIW). But you're falling into the trap of believing your ears are perceiving an objective fact. Originally Posted by ragman1
Sure, but so what? Originally Posted by ragman1
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Right. And that would be one reason why so many people (rockers at least) hear it, and think of it in D. (The other is the vocal's focus on D.) Originally Posted by ragman1
So what makes you (and me) hear it in G?
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I like it. Taught me lots about the tune that I didn't know. Originally Posted by ragman1
Of course, strictly speaking, we (if we're to call ourselves Proper Jazz Musicians) should all be learning that stuff by listening and playing the tune - over and over - not by reading such an exposition. I'm quite happy to consider myself unqualified to be a Proper Jazz Musician but I feel certain that, after reading that, I would be able to play a better solo on the tune.
Surely anything that contributes to understanding a piece of music - even an academic treatise as dry as this - should not be sneered at.
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Do the "last chord" chord test (the original fades out...hmmmmm)
If you were (forced or monetarily coerced, presumably) to play this song live, would you end on a G or a D?
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Assuming you mean Sweet Home Alabama and not Blue In Green... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
... it would be G for me. As it was for Skynyrd themselves.
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So what about tunes that finish on chords other than the tonic?
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Yeah, those are cool Originally Posted by christianm77
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I like them. Originally Posted by christianm77
But the point is, they don't sound finished - harmonically that is. I mean, obviously they're finished, because everyone's stopped playing... but you know what I mean.
That's why they're cool.
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Not modal though right? Originally Posted by JonR
I like them.
But the point is, they don't sound finished - harmonically that is. I mean, obviously they're finished, because everyone's stopped playing... but you know what I mean.
That's why they're cool.
I'm not sure there's any cast iron thing that says a tune is modal. One persons tonic might be another persons non tonic ending chord.
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Also this means you have been listening to far too many Circle of Fifths Progressions for too long... Originally Posted by JonR
I like them.
But the point is, they don't sound finished - harmonically that is. I mean, obviously they're finished, because everyone's stopped playing... but you know what I mean.
That's why they're cool.
haha.
Of course I have read enough of your Posts to know this can't really be true ..maybe Women with signs like 'Round 7 ' in Boxing Championships announcing" This Song is Over " .Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-27-2017 at 04:48 PM.
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Well, it's probably not worth starting a thing about it but, yes, I think mere common sense says they weren't trying anything sophisticated. You know, like G's the home chord and they do D - C - G. I mean, it's not what I'd call rocket science myself... but each to their own Originally Posted by JonR
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Tunes that don't end on the tonic...
This one's in F, right? :-)
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Maybe we should scrap the whole idea of key signatures. Write everything as it comes and just put in the #'s and b's as necessary.
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Yeah -rarely rivaled or equalled for Songwriting and Originally Posted by ragman1
some of the most Creative Guitar Composition ever
despite 'Harmonic Simplicity 'on many Beatles Tunes.( IMO )
I am also remembering when young how often Doc Severinsen and Tonight Show Band would do really weird but cool sounding Deceptive Cadences or (Unresolved Cadences might be a better term) at Endings...and those can sound so good when a Sax Player ( usually ) blows some lines over the End Chord.
Your example is unique because we get the feeling that the Song never ends....it keeps on going but we don't get to continue on with it.
'Castles Made of Sand ' does that also ...Last edited by Robertkoa; 06-27-2017 at 04:56 PM.
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some rules for modal music
identify and emphasize the TONIC often a BASS PEDAL
use of the chords with the characteristic note from the scale
avoid as much as possible the tritone interval .
Most of the times it would lead you to play adjacent degrees.
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Wow, I never had much of a response for awhile and forgot about this thread... it had life I see.
Interesting reads. I never knew Indian music wasn't harmonic. Makes sense to degree, listening to the vocalizations with free-reign, usually exploring the same mode song after song.
Maybe I used the wrong term? I wanted to hear your ideas about how to write a song with different moods.
Simple progression and or even a vamp with the melody defining a mode for time is an approach, assuming a singer's relative pitch is that good.
Another way, might be adding a chord built from a modal family, and it added. I am not just talking about a parallel major or minor chord. Parallel chords can have that modal effect as in a simply ACDC tune, often using a Dmaj.
I have read an approach to adding modal flavor to a pop progression is to literally focus on the modal formula and highlight those chords : Phygrian I bII bIII but often this can derail a pop/ folk progression so this approach might be best as a bridge or interlude.
Another approach that many pianists use is to use chords unique to that mode in a modal family (maj/min) and use one or two of those chords within a I IV V or I vi IV V progression. An
example, the unique chord in Dorian among the two other minor modes (excluding locrian) is the major IV.
Dorian i ii III IV v vib5 VII ...so i IV v or i VI IV v
Is this unique chord enough to define a Dorian flavor on it's own or does the bass guitar or vocalist etc need to playing the bIII and bVII throughout?
The other approach is to just add a chord for melody or to create plagal cadence which borrows bVII from Mixolydian, but unless this plagal bVII / IV cadence isn't playing a key role in the verse and or the chorus, can it be enough to effectively be a modal progression?
Anyway the last two seem to be the most used approaches for creating different moods which works well with a singer. Thoughts?
My two cents, on Sweet Home Alabama : key G - the fact that the bass guitar which has all the proverbial gravity in a band, spends more time on G makes it a no-brainer IMO YMMV
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