Guide to MODAL Progressions???

[christianm77]

There's a lot more to modal than simply pitch collections, chords, and where things begin or end.

There are some really good older threads on this stuff. Do a forum search on terms "modal" and "characteristic pitch", and user name: "Reg".

A lot of discussion on pure modal and then, more on playing modal over traditional functional tunes as well.

Modal jazz theory isn't really based on modes as they are understood in other areas of music.

They may have the same notes (or not in the case of the melodic minor modes which are more or less identified with jazz) but the usage is completely different.

It's like the difference between the Nahawand maqam and the harmonic minor.

Anyway, I wish we had a different name for it chord-scales is OK (because they are a fusion of chords and scales), modes less so, scales even less.

[docsteve]

This is a heavy edit of a short reply to a question that was edited away in the meantime, namely what tells you the mode of a tune from a harmonic progression.

The short answer: nothing. The melody is modal, not the chords. As someone has posted above, true modal music doesn't have harmony.

Having said that, of course you can tell from some progressions that they are meant for modal playing. So What stays on one chord for 16 bars. Nowegian Wood stays on one chord for six bars, goes to bVii for one and returns to I. Oye Come Va is built on two chords that differ in a single note, if you discount the bass

A tune that has 2-5-1 progressions, or modulates to a different key, is not modal.

Still you can have a modal tune and reharmonize it in a completely non-modal way. Take Brahms' motet O Heiland Reiss Die Himmel Auf, or Bach's setting of Nun Komm, der Heiden Heiland.


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[Robertkoa]

Understood..
I am thinking that when Miles showed other Musicians the' changes' to "So What" - they said-

'Huh ? Only 2 Chords ( maybe 4)?'

And Miles probably was saying -

'Yeah two Chords- So what ?'

Hence the name...So What

Maybe...either way it's amazing what really good (great if I count Benson )Jazz Musicians can do on a Tune like 'So What'.

[christianm77]

Actually IIRC Miles wrote out So What as two scales not two chords.

Might seem like splitting hairs but that's an important distinction.

[ragman1]

Really (this is addressed to the OP), modal playing is just a way of finding interesting sounds and creating moods, which jazz musicians are constantly doing.

The minor chord, as well as having its own key, appears in 3 separate major scales and 3 other minor scales so any of those scales can be used to play over them.

Dm, for instance, has its own key based on the harmonic minor scale. Apart from that it appears in F, C and Bb major. Also in the A and C harmonic minors. Also in the D and C melodic minor scales.

That's a lot. And playing with these modes becomes hypnotic. It's like a drug, you just want to keep on doing it. No wonder it's popular!

I couldn't resist... here's Dm with all those examples over them, in order. If you're interested :-)

But the same applies to major chords and dominant chords. But that would take too long. I might be tempted later. Maybe.

[ragman1]

Couldn't resist. It's a bit indulgent but here's a nice ordinary C major chord. What could be more harmless?

However, it appears in all the following scales. And it stops sounding like a major chord after a while, more Indian or Arabian or something. Snake-charming music! Quite scary really... it can leave you in a very strange state.

C, F and G major scales.

E and F harmonic minor scales.

F and G melodic minor scales.

[christianm77]

Well Hijaz Kar (one of my favourites)

C Db E F G Ab B

On a C major 7 right?

[christianm77]

The Miles liked the augmented scale

C, Eb, E, G, Ab, B

Another Cmaj7 sound

See Jordan's thread...

[Robertkoa]

Pretty much. The ii-V-I is a legacy of common practice harmony (Bach, Mozart etc.)The obsession with ii-V-I's actually starts post war though. Many of the original harmonies for standards use fewer ii-V-I's than have become customary. I think ii-V's really came into vogue around the 1950s.Barry Harris has a big anti II-V-I rant, and actually it's short cut harmony. But the rules of functional harmony allow for many more interesting and nuanced variations. In jazz these are often understood through 'chord substityution' although there are other approaches. I think this is often misunderstood. 'Don't end a phrase on 1.' In fact the 1 is used as a phrase ending ALL THE TIME, it's just that it needs to be understood in terms of effect. I think of it as a 'period' as opposed to the comma 3 or a 5 or the semicolon, say of ending on a 2 or a 7.Different levels of tension for phrase ends. Grammar and sentence construction. Check bebop heads for examples.The string band tradition was already venerable by the time Django came on the scene. The rhythmic feel of authentic GJ players is somewhat different to American jazz (even of the 30s & 40s) but to my ears it is very different to Western swing. Country guitar players have very different articulation to GJ soloists. The two step Polka style rhythm and alternating bass is obviously common - but this is very widespread through European and North American music. Polka was big in the 19th century.There is a crossover, obviously.Well the real genius of jazz was the introduction of West African diaspora rhythm into Western popular music, but that is now commonplace in all genres of pop, so gets overlooked, along with the development of the rhythm section, drum set, etc.Anyway we see jazz harmony as a thing because it is relatively functional, complicated and chromatic compared to modern pop harmony.For example, II-V-I's, I-IV7-I's, I-VI-II-V-I's etc are not jazz harmony per se, they are just functional harmony. It's just that popular music has moved onto less functional based progressions like the ones discussed here (the functional ones sound old fashioned), so it's kind of now associated with jazz, while every style of pop music has some sort of real or simulated drum set.Looking backwards gives a distorted picture.

I had to look up 'Diaspora ' initially thinking it was going to be some Rhythm from Africa which infused Jazz- lol.

Though I am sure this happened in other Countries and Continents the Origins at least in USA of Blues,Rock and Roll, Jazz, Gospel , R&B, Hip Hop , probably Bebop were ALL African American - this does not mean that they were the ONLY ones and it is ultimately a Cultural Mix not a Racial One - the type of Body you are in or run obviously does NOT dictate who you are or how you Play or what you can do in any Field.
I am a good example as a white guy with R&B and Modern Urban Time Feel...

But we should give credit where due..In USA the ' Diaspora ' was not Voluntary and as a White Person..it is important for me to remember that.

You have a very broad View of it though - the Influence of Africa now so much a part of our Musical Culture ( even the Drum Kit- I never even thought of that as African in Genus - brilliant of you to realize that - you can do a BBC Series eventually - funny but actually true I think .)..

Probably Reggae in Jamaica as well and Afro Cuban going outside USA for Origins..

.Not sure about Bossa from Brazil and Joropo and Gaita from Venezuela etc.After a little more Harmony I will check out World Rhythms more thoroughly..as you probably already have..but can't use fully on Gigs..

UNLESS -"you create a World Music Ensemble where you play Middle Eastern..Arabic..GJ..Jazz ..Bebop all types of Rhythms and Market it that way...the sophisticated Brits in London might LOVE that..?



A separate thread for World Rhythms would be good - right ?

Sophisticated Rhythms is where I will want to not sight read but learn develop and further basic reading skills to differentiate and see as well as hear the Rhthms and what makes them tick.


Sorry for off topic here..will start another thread for this...

[Robertkoa]

Couldn't resist. It's a bit indulgent but here's a nice ordinary C major chord. What could be more harmless?

However, it appears in all the following scales. And it stops sounding like a major chord after a while, more Indian or Arabian or something. Snake-charming music! Quite scary really... it can leave you in a very strange state.

C, F and G major scales.

E and F harmonic minor scales.

F and G melodic minor scales.

That is some very cool sounding Music for one Chord and I like the Arabic/ Indian?/ etc. effect transforming the Chord as you say !

Sounds like Meditative Music but with changing chords could be serious Composition...
AND for people like ME who think Vertically- this is very enlightening...

I actually like the Playing..very calm and well articulated- vibrato ...timing ...you were probably not even trying..an excellent demonstration !

Takes some skills to make these work this well over C Major..but they do here.

Yes..mind altering Music not Drugs ...!
...I don't have a snake though..

EDIT I use - ii [ aolean ] and v [aolean] over Dominant type chords sometimes Min 7 types too[ i ] [v] Aolean - one of the few Scales I play as a Scale..





But I am thinking Cobras would like transposed Harmonic Minor ..

I am now actually going to use a Rattlesnake as a percussion device - probably not live - they are hard to train - at some point ..on a Recording ..lol.( percussion loop )

[ragman1]

That is some very cool sounding Music for one Chord and I like the Arabic/ Indian?/ etc. effect transforming the Chord as you say !

Using ordinary scales too, that's one point.

could be serious Composition...

To be honest, it's probably not. Far better to keep it simple. Like 'So What' is only two minor chords.

I actually like the Playing

Thanks, I like doing it, it's always worth the effort.

I use - ii and v Harmonic Minor over Dominant type chords sometimes Min 7 types too - one of the few Scales I play as a Scale..

Actually there aren't that many diatonic options over a dominant. G7 only appears in C major. Technically all the chords in C maj could be played over it - Dm7, Em7, FM7, Am7, Bm7b5.

But it also appears in the C harmonic, C melodic, and D melodic minor scales, so those would work too. And you can do the modal interchange stuff. The altered scale is man-made, so to speak. Over a Db7 the Ab mel is just the ii sub. Over G7, the tritone of Db, it becomes the altered scale.

I am now actually going to use a Rattlesnake as a percussion device - probably not live

I don't know, you might discover a rattler with rhythm :-)

[Robertkoa]

Hey Ragman...two major chords and one or 2
Maj7#11s ( or Maj7b5 =omit the natural 5th ) one percussionist, two belly dancers and it's a Party !

Lol. Your call, of course.

One of the reasons of learning about Jazz is to avoid being trapped in one Key..lol..so I would hesitate to record a one chord Tune on a CD and expect Sales...

But your Demo of what can be done over one chord with Diatonic Scales is impressive.

[Robertkoa]

Interesting...



But the I - bVII does seem Mixolydian by Modal Math or whatever but I remember the Walter Piston
Book :
I- IV of IV - IV - I where he said the Subdominant was strong enough to have a secondary function..

And it almost works with Major 7ths
the IM7- bVIIM7 of course is common.

And it works as Minor 7ths :

C min7 - Bbmin 7 - Fmin9 - Cmin 7

So these are not Modal ,right ?

The bVII is used as a " Backdoor V" sometimes too ..

So bVII is Functional Harmony ?

@ Fuzz the bee -Below..
.For ME it is - I can use it that way...I have not experimented with Backdoor Cadences yet but those are similar to some R&B or Rock.I have used...

If you listen to 'All Right Now ' Sympathy for The Devil ' etc you can hear the IV function ...weaker than
Tritone Resolution of V- I but still there...

Just wonder whether Jazzers call it Functional or Non Functional ..or my NEW Classification- Disfunctional Harmony...lol.

[ragman1]

Maj7b5 =omit the natural 5th

I used to live in a Flat 5. My jazzy friends thought it was a hoot :-)

[christianm77]

I live in a Flat 3. It's sad.

[Robertkoa]

Ragman- yes I can hear how living in a flat 5 has influenced your 'Diatonic Snake Charmer ' Scales.
Also I like a LOT that they are Diatonic= multi use over MANY Diatonic Structures .

And Christian has apparent studied Music , Theory, Jazz of many Eras and Styles,Advanced Theory , GJ ,World Music,Music History Musicology etc etc ++++ in addition to playing 'Wild Thing' for hours when younger to escape the Flat 3 Tyranny of only using Minor Chords...

I assume Flat 5 has 5 rooms and Flat 3 has 3 rooms -see how advanced I am getting?
In USA we call a Flat 3 Apartment a 'Studio' ..or is it Flat 2 ?

What I meant is if I have a Maj7b5 on a Tune it is different from a Maj7#11 - where I am playing two fifths but obviously with Keyboard Player or a Vocal- got to be careful...


Also - if I am playing Aeolian Mode from the 5th of a chord...( I also do it in Blues from the 2 of Dominant Chords 9th to 9th- even in Rock Blues ) - and all sorts of Minor Scales and Arps sound good off the 5th of a Dom Chord..not always 5 to 5 of course.

My question is I assume Jazzers like Melodic Minor because of Major Sixth sounding better over Minor 7ths and Minor 6ths but also in a ii- V it [ Major 6 chord degree ]becomes the 3rd of the Dominant Chord..?

But - with Natural Minor off the *5th of the ii Chord - I get that anyway...don't need a separate fingering and
it's Diatonic so will be more flexible..
*but not 5 to 5 or even necessarily starting on the 5th.
What am I missing here ? Been playing by ear so long I want to tie things together more...

Also - I like Vertical Stacking and Playing and Transposing Pentatonics Parent Keys instead of Modes but I liked the sound of that Aoelian off the 5th and was doing that long ago in my Steely Dan- ish Fusion ramblings.

So Aoelian off the 5th and all over is a lot like Melodic Minor ?

Except the ' #7 of Melodic Minor- maybe an idiosyncrasy of mine but if I want the #7 on a Minor
Chord I would't learn a whole separate scale just for that..

So will not learning the MM Scale kill my Expanded R&B Career and cost me millions ? Lol.

I am on my Phone only - I will eventually Post Music here ..if I do it now it will have to use the IrealB Rhythm Section on my Android...and Record on my Phone ..lol.
I don't have a Recording Rig now or need one yet...nor a Computer.

[ragman1]

I assume Flat 5 has 5 rooms

Um, as a matter of fact, amazingly... it did!

What am I missing here ?

Dunno, but I know what I'm missing... hearing you play something. Got anything?

[Robertkoa]

That means I don't really need the Jazz M Minor ...
cause IF even want to quote a whole scale ..which is
not how I really play ..
I already have the Major 6th over Minor on Diatonic Modes and enharmonic Modal Pentatonics then
so what is the big reason Jazz Guys like Melodic Minor ?

I don't care about a 'faux leading tone ' on Minor 7 th chords .

If I want chromatic tones they would be added to an Arp or Arp Fragment..that would be ridiculous for me personally to learn entire fingerings just for a few chromatic Tones...just how I think.



Again - using Parent Keys. (and by EAR ).I play G major derivatives and Arps and the subset Pentas and Arps for A Dorian- so I would flunk Music Class if I had to play
Strict Dorian - lol.( Root to Root - though in real Music Improv I don' t favor the Root over other Degrees in the chord or in writing for voice ).

We can address whether I can play or not in the Future ...haha.
The Competion is tough..so am I.

[christianm77]

Ragman- yes I can hear how living in a flat 5 has influenced your 'Diatonic Snake Charmer ' Scales.
Also I like a LOT that they are Diatonic= multi use over MANY Diatonic Structures .

And Christian has apparent studied Music , Theory, Jazz of many Eras and Styles,Advanced Theory , GJ ,World Music,Music History Musicology etc etc ++++ in addition to playing 'Wild Thing' for hours when younger to escape the Flat 3 Tyranny of only using Minor Chords...

Yeah I did play Wild Thing in my school rock band, of course.

Actually, we sang it thus

'WORTHING!
It's next to Lancing
It's a long walk from Steyning!
Worthing, I think I hate you.'

This only makes sense or is even vaguely amusing if you have lived in Brighton or Sussex BTW, but I thought I'd share it anyway.

I assume Flat 5 has 5 rooms and Flat 3 has 3 rooms -see how advanced I am getting?
In USA we call a Flat 3 Apartment a 'Studio' ..or is it Flat 2 ?

What I meant is if I have a Maj7b5 on a Tune it is different from a Maj7#11 - where I am playing two fifths but obviously with Keyboard Player or a Vocal- got to be careful...


Also - if I am playing Aeolian Mode from the 5th of a chord...( I also do it in Blues from the 2 of Dominant Chords 9th to 9th- even in Rock Blues ) - and all sorts of Minor Scales and Arps sound good off the 5th of a Dom Chord..not always 5 to 5 of course.

My question is I assume Jazzers like Melodic Minor because of Major Sixth sounding better over Minor 7ths and Minor 6ths but also in a ii- V it [ Major 6 chord degree ]becomes the 3rd of the Dominant Chord..?

But - with Natural Minor off the *5th of the ii Chord - I get that anyway...don't need a separate fingering and
it's Diatonic so will be more flexible..
*but not 5 to 5 or even necessarily starting on the 5th.
What am I missing here ? Been playing by ear so long I want to tie things together more...

Also - I like Vertical Stacking and Playing and Transposing Pentatonics Parent Keys instead of Modes but I liked the sound of that Aoelian off the 5th and was doing that long ago in my Steely Dan- ish Fusion ramblings.

So Aoelian off the 5th and all over is a lot like Melodic Minor ?

Except the ' #7 of Melodic Minor- maybe an idiosyncrasy of mine but if I want the #7 on a Minor
Chord I would't learn a whole separate scale just for that..

So will not learning the MM Scale kill my Expanded R&B Career and cost me millions ? Lol.

Yeah. No one actually wants to hear the melodic minor except college jazz programme assessors.

And that's a scientific fact.

[Robertkoa]

Really?

Cause so much of the Jazz Theory I am learning here is super logical and practical ..

When I was a kid ..I saw Hendrix and I was so surprised that he did 'Wild Thing' as his' Finale' or last song...because that was ' Bubble Gum Rock ' at the time...lol ..it wasn't ' cool' like Beatles Stones Yardbirds..R&B .
We had our own snob appeal of what ' serious Rock'
was..



Humor aside- your Musical Pallete is probably so broad that I could only narrow down what Music you were going to play by the Type of Club, Venue assuming I knew London.

Also you and Ragman above I am quite sure could do some great Jamming on Middle Eastern (and Turkey seems to have some cool Rhythmic dance stuff..with Hybrid Rhythms sometimes..

[ragman1]

Any non-diatonic note alters the sound of the chord. It's also a fact that playing diatonically over an altered chord doesn't sound that good. The altered scale takes care of that admirably since it contains chord tones of the original dominant. That can be tested by comparing playing G altered over G7alt as opposed to the Bb minor pentatonic which only contains all the possible altered notes and nothing more.

Personally, I rarely play a strict melodic minor. Over a Dm7 or 6, say, I'd use the C# before the D root but then only use a C natural the octave above. I think it sounds better. That may be classical too, since they tend to only use the melodic minor ascending but not descending.

Or something like that :-)

[christianm77]

Really?

Cause so much of the Jazz Theory I am learning here is super logical and practical ..

When I was a kid ..I saw Hendrix and I was so surprised that he did 'Wild Thing' as his' Finale' or last song...because that was ' Bubble Gum Rock ' at the time...lol ..it wasn't ' cool' like Beatles Stones Yardbirds..R&B .
We had our own snob appeal of what ' serious Rock'
was..



Humor aside- your Musical Pallete is probably so broad that I could only narrow down what Music you were going to play by the Type of Club, Venue assuming I knew London.

Well it's a good point. I try to make it clear in the marketing for the bands. If it's under my name it will be modern/contemporary jazz basically (Christian Miller quartet is a pretty stock modern jazz thing to call a band). If it's under the name of the group it will be whatever that band is. I tend to be project oriented.

I think most players are similar. London is an eclectic place.

And music will become MORE eclectic. It's way people listen now. The internet and spotify generation. Music used to be so tribal. The musicians now can play ANYTHING. (Which carries its own pitfalls.)

Also you and Ragman above I am quite sure could do some great Jamming on Middle Eastern (and Turkey seems to have some cool Modern Dance but different Rhythms on SOME Tracks )..

So I definitely would not have that capability....not even close...lol.

Well here's one I did

[Robertkoa]

Hey Christian - that sounds excellent ! I love the is it oud -like Vibrato...percussive picking on low E string
neighboring unisons letting seconds ring simultaneously and the Tone ( Tele ? but it really works )and Timing oh and the Chords in the Solos .

I see that you ( correct me if I am wrong here ) are very successfully kind of flattening out the right hand of GJ Style less arch less high arch etc. and it is working very well !

You have really good accents in your Picking from the Right Hand .



Dramatic.



You are really good at this Style .
Probably others too..but sound deep into it .


This Rhythm Section kicks ass too ..nice Grooves!

Some serious Possibilities here .

There is a point where the Drummer and Bassist are doing almost a Backbeat with an interesting Groove not too far from...some of Sax Kenny Garrett's Rhythm Section stuff.

Re: McLaughlin Alt Picking...let's hope this is still a Marketable Skill....lol.

[christianm77]

Hey Christian - that sounds excellent ! I love the is it oud -like Vibrato...percussive picking on low E string
neighboring unisons letting seconds ring simultaneously and the Tone ( Tele ? but it really works )and Timing oh and the Chords in the Solos .

Thanks man! I really like this sound. I use it on a lot of my gigs actually as a flavour.

I see that you ( correct me if I am wrong here ) are very successfully kind of flattening out the right hand of GJ Style less arch less high arch etc. and it is working very well !

You have really good accents in your Picking from the Right Hand .



Dramatic.

You are really good at this Style .
Probably others too..but sound deep into it .

Thanks man. I would say that I am pretty much just winging it in this kind of music, but aside from listening to Brad Shepik, Anouar Brahem etc, I work with musicians who do know their shit (including an excellent Oud player/jazz guitarist named Stephanos Tsourelis - his right hand is BADASS rhythmic) and I try to imitate what I hear.

Stephanos plays Oud with traditional technique which is very similar to GJ picking, but alternate picks MacLaughlin style on Guitar (and is very good at it.) I better post some of his music:

Here he is on Oud on a Turkish Longa

And here he is playing a bit of fusioney jazz. I hear a big JM influence in his playing.

[Robertkoa]

NOW - back to the Thread Topic -

Here is the Link to a Beato Video - forget about the Light and Dark Modulations part..he gets into some
VERY interesting Modal Chords and looks at -

NOT about the light and dark Novelty debatable thing- GO about 20 minutes in where he starts playing Modal Chords on Piano and showing Direct Modal Modulations by merely playing one Voicing then Another.

I have NEVER seen this done before or demonstrated.!

1]Harmonic Implications of the Modes for Chord Building and stacks up the Modes on Piano as Chords.

2] He DEMONSTRATES what I will call Direct Modulations by Change of Mode - but

!!!!! Merely by Playing an A Aeolian Chord THEN a C Dorian Chord - and other examples

Bang = Instant Modulation and it WORKS usually and sounds good depending on Voicing obviously.

Now I have been using Maj7 b5/ Major 7#11 / Major 9b5 / Major 9 6 b5 / etc. because I like the sounds and the ambiguity as Pivot Chords etc.

And I recently saw the Minor b6th Chord on IrealB and of course with my ' LIMITED ' Classical Theory and having performed 'Summer Breeze ' by Seals & Crofts - check out the opening chord -
Thought ha ha ha - it's really just an Inversion of a Maj7th Chord -

But it's MORE - it's an Aeolian Chord !

SO now I want to start to examine - really I want the Theory Guys here to really examine these Voicings on Guitar..Modal Voicings etc.
I have an use some nice ones but did NOT realize the
Big Picture on Direct Modulations.

Not in ANY Theory Book I ever saw - well I only saw about 4 -:they were Classical Theory.

OK so in the Video - Beato talks about the location of the 1/2 steps in the Scale then Builds Chords..

So what do you Guys think ?

I like it as a Harmonic Resource - what are some Phrygian Chords ?

When I play a Minor 11 b5 - is this a Locrian Chord ?

I like it's sound and it's versatility- It can be a minor Tonic....it can be a V in a Major ii- V- I or it can be a
ii in a Minor ii° -V- i.

As R& B/ Fusion Writer - I use it mostly as a vii° or secondary vii° passing chord and as a iv etc.

And as a' left field' Cadence where it ends a Phrase-
and the Next Phrase is in a NEW KEY with no Dominant to 'Announce ' the new Key - haha - the coolest uses for these.

My fave Voicings for Minor11 b5 [ must have b3 and 4th or 11th in the Voicing to be Minor not a sus ] are more like if Keith Richards or Hendrix played them - lol - but they sound more Inside or Pop or Piano- ish

Thoughts on the Video ?

Should we post Voicings of Modal Chords ?

I am not sure what a Phyrygian Chord would be.....?

By the way here is the great Intro Aeolian - chord

Minor Flat 6 on Summer Breeze by Seals and Crofts who were VERY harmonically hip and advanced but kind of ' under the Radar ' for this quality.

I used to just call it a Major 7th Inversion - but missed the Modal Implications - the HARMONIC modal implications.