When did jazz musicians start to play standards in odd meters ?

[ALB]

Hi there,

Another question of modern history of jazz. All is in the tittle : When Jazz Musicians start to play standards in odd meters ?

The first clue, maybe, is the Smalls crew in the 90's with Chris Potter or Brad Mehldau.

What do you think ?

[ronjazz]

I've been doing it for 40 years, George Shearing did it in the 70s, it's hardly new. In fact, Fly Me To The Moon was originally a waltz, and now always done in 4.

[grahambop]

How about Grant Green, Blue Note album 'Street of Dreams', track 'Lazy Afternoon' done in 5/4, in 1964.

But I expect there are earlier examples than this.

[grahambop]

I imagine as soon as Brubeck and Desmond's 'Take Five' came out in 1959, it gave lots of people the idea of doing standards in unusual time signatures.

[JonR]

I always liked how Georgie Fame used to play the blues standard "Seventh Son" in 7/4. See what he did there....

[pubylakeg]

Intentionally ? or otherwise ?

[Cunamara]

I think grahambop has the right of it, at least in terms of bringing odd signatures (by Western notions) to attention. The idea caught on outside of jazz, too. The Dead did tunes in 5, 7, 10, 11, 14.

Yes and other prog-rock bands used many odd time signatures.

Kreisberg does Summertime in what counts out as 5 to my ears on one of his records.

[TH]

Mahavishnu Orchestra changed the way Phil Collins and (the good incarnation of) Genesis played. There's a way of playing "odd" meters where you feel it, like many folk melodies and you don't even notice it. Then I can always hear it when a group is trying to be hip by playing a tune in an odd meter and counting it through.

It's actually the way many folk musics are naturally. It fits the dances that are mostly NOT in 4/4. Balkan music isn't even referred to in numerical meter (save for the band), it's by the dance.

This is some music from Finland.

It's in 9, but it sounds more organic than if it were in 4. (in 4+2+3 groupings as I hear it, or kind of a 4+4+pickup built in)
David

[TH]

Ben playing All The Things in 11

[Ol' Fret]

"So, for the past three or four years, I've been using this great heritage of songs, playing them in a certain un­orthodox way but without announcing in advance what I was doing. After I got through with, say, Someone to Watch Over Me or Smoke Gets in Your Eyes, people would be startled and en­thusiastic. They'd say, > Gee, that was wonderful but there was something dif­ferent about it. What did you do? <"

"Then I'd tell them. I'd been playing all these tunes in 5/4 time."

(Jazz Profiles: Johnny Guarnieri: Master Stride Pianist )

That's Johnny Guarnieri (1917 - 1985), one of these many musicians' musician and underrated characters in jazz history.


So what has Guarnieri to do with jazz guitars? More than you may think: he is a descendant of the famous Guarnerius family of violinmakers in Cremona.


Some clips:

Many 'unusual' time signatures originated from the Indian music, from Africa, Brazil, etc.. Just have a look where guys like Don Ellis got their influences from.

[grahambop]

I have actually seen Johnny Guarnieri, he was in the Lionel Hampton band at a jazz festival in the UK early 1980s.

[pingu]

I've been doing it for 40 years, George Shearing did it in the 70s, it's hardly new. In fact, Fly Me To The Moon was originally a waltz, and now always done in 4.

I'd like to hear that
Got an good links for a version in 3 ?

[rintincop]

I hate it when they do that at Smalls. It's the cue when the audience can go for a potty break.

[TH]

I hate it when they do that at Smalls. It's the cue when the audience can go for a potty break.

I wait. When the bass player plays a solo, I get to pee AND poop. Besides that's a much longer tradition.
David

[ALB]

Thanks for all replies.
I know that there is some originals compositions in odd metrics before the 90's. I'm looking for the using of odd meters in standards with improvisations and eventually with recordings.
The question is not simple as it looks because odd meters is very frequent in the XXth century music and then "appears" at the same time as jazz. The interest of extra-occidental music in the late 60's and 70's create musician like Don Ellis or John McLaughlin but they used odd meters in own composition.
I know too that a touchy question because it refers to the tradition of jazz and I know that some purist don't want to hear about that metamorphose of the tradition. But it's not the question here, no offense.

[ragman1]

I play in all kinds of weird timings... usually when I've just woken up :-)

[Robertkoa]

That means they are bored and need some new Material ...lol.

Just a wild guess on my part- ...

[TH]

That means they are bored and need some new Material ...lol.

Just a wild guess on my part- ...

In the real world, when a jazz musician is bored and needs new material, they find employment at Rite Aid. Playing in odd meter is sometimes an exclusionary exercise to separate people who listen from people that can't hear it. It's part of a jazz tradition that goes way back to bebop. And it's actually kinda fun to play because it's got a feeling of internal movement through a change in balance one would be used to. If it's done well.

But bebop was dismissed as a gimmick and a confused mess by those who didn't get it.
You should try it! Once I decided to understand the ability of a meter change to create new possibility, it was like a step into another world.

But that's just me
David

[sgosnell]

Some more guitar content: Guarnieri played in the Goodman septet along with Charlie Christian.

[Irishmuso]

Some more guitar content: Guarnieri played in the Goodman septet along with Charlie Christian.

I wonder is that Guarnieri saying, 'Charlie, let's play the blues...in B' on the Waiting for Benny sessions?

[Christian Miller]

In a sense all jazz performances are in odd meter compared to Western European art music because the accentuation follows a clave or bell pattern rather than the strong/weak stress of European meter

[Peter C]

"5/4" is not odd.
What's weird is the custom of working out a meter before approaching a tune.
And that Finnish folk tune has a beautiful lilt. Who's counting?
Stuff for drummers. Maybe.

[sgosnell]

I wonder is that Guarnieri saying, 'Charlie, let's play the blues...in B' on the Waiting for Benny sessions?

Yes, that's Guarnieri. Notice the piano and guitar start at the same time, all the rest come in later, as they try to figure out what's going on. Someone (Auld?) says "What the hell key is that?" and someone (Guarnieri?) answers "B". And they play like they had already practiced it.

[j4zz]

I imagine as soon as Brubeck and Desmond's 'Take Five' came out in 1959, it gave lots of people the idea of doing standards in unusual time signatures.

There's a whole series of albums Brubeck released with tracks in odd signatures

Time Out
Time Further Out
Countdown - Time in Outer Space
Time Changes
Time In

[Ukena]

I'd like to hear that
Got an good links for a version in 3 ?

The first recording of Fly Me to the Moon was by Kaye Ballard in 1954, the year it was written. Quincy Jones gets credit for putting it in 4/4, for the arrangement he did in 1964 for Frank Sinatra, but both Nat King Cole and Nancy Wilson recorded it in 2 or 4 before that.