When did Jazz Musicians start using the altered scale?

[matt.guitarteacher]

Well what's the answer to the thread's question?

The Berkelee illuminati created the altered scale. Something to do with grassy knolls and alleged moon landings...

:-)

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

...

[PMB]

I'll watch your vid when I am able.

TBH I thought this is one of those unusual threads that came to a satisfying conclusion and gave me some interesting new info.

Nice one chaps.

Thanks for posting it, Christian.

[PMB]

Well what's the answer to the thread's question?

Nothing absolute except the raising of yet another question over the received wisdom that first-generation boppers (and Ravel) employed the altered scale.

[bako]

Hobbyist ramblings:

G A Bb C D E (F) F#

I would more likely think of this as G dorian with F# as the auxiliary note.

G A Bb C D E F (F#)

[christianm77]

Nothing absolute except the raising of yet another question over the received wisdom that first-generation boppers (and Ravel) employed the altered scale.

The answer to the question is definitely by 1950s, and conceptually by the 1970s. Earlier examples are a bit more contested.

[matt.guitarteacher]

G A Bb C D E (F) F#

I would more likely think of this as G dorian with F# as the auxiliary note.

G A Bb C D E F (F#)

That makes sense. I imagine most probably would. (Although I DO like the idea of visualizing the "not F" in targeting F, especially with the idea of applying the same concept to more "out" pitch collections.) Pretty vanilla example anyway, but I'm in a vanilla place, requiring vanilla approach probably. This note set at least gets me to "blues scale +" in a way which actually works for me.

Thanks.

[rintincop]

Who do we hear playing the ALT scale in the 1950's ?

[christianm77]

Who do we hear playing the ALT scale in the 1950's ?

Miles Davis. Also Gil Evans writes it. See above.

I'm sure there's others, but obviously haven't transcribed every flippin record (yet)

[ragman1]

Gawd, after all this argy-bargy we've only got "sometime in the 50's"?

What was it all for? Didn't we know that already? I thought the problem was whether it went back before the obvious, i.e. post-Parker, late 40's etc.

[christianm77]

Actually I was surprised to learn the scale goes back to the 50s even. I would have said 70s, 60s at most.

If you want to dig a bit deeper that would be cool, but for now I'm happy enough to conclude 'at present we have found no evidence that the altered scale was used in either jazz or classical music before the 1950s' - which is the type of thing you often hear historians say.

Also 'there is scholarly support lent to the idea that the altered scale became a popular concept in jazz education after around 1970 although more work could be done researching this especially in relation to Herb Pomeroy's teaching career.'

Also 'an important side issue is how the jazz usage of scales has changed since the bop era.'

Anyway I'll carry on transcribing lines on this type of chord and will post anything pertinent up here.

[christianm77]

Maybe off-topic , directly. But this is inspired by this conversation.

No activity for a while on this one anyway . Anyway, interested in anyone else's thoughts on this.

Hobbyist ramblings:

Nice video Matt... very clear explanation of something I didn't understand.

TBH this is not something I have really played around with. Might be fun.

[ragman1]

I'm happy enough to conclude 'at present we have found no evidence that the altered scale was used in either jazz or classical music before the 1950s'

You'd be wrong there, there are altered scales in Debussy, Ravel and Scriabin for sure. I have that on good, verified authority from Dmitri Tymoczko. No question.

[goldenwave77]

Someone should run this by Hal Galper. Acc'd to Jazz: The Rough Guide, Herb Pomeroy was born in 1930, and started teaching at Berkelee in 1955.

The Rough Guide's entry on Hal Galper states that he was at Berkelee from 1955-8, and had "private tuition with Jaki Byard, Herb Pomeroy and others", and also that he also played with the Pomeroy big band and small group in Boston in the late 50's.

He (Galper) has also thought a lot about these issues, e.g. his statement on one of his video clips "there is absolutely no historical justification for CST theory...that it is bogus". (I'm quoting his sense, and may be off by a few words. You can find this clip for yourself on his site--his basic message is pretty clear.)

I've seen the 'alt. scale' referred to as the "Pomeroy scale".

PS: Pomeroy passed away in 2007, while Hal Galper is still alive and well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Nice video Matt... very clear explanation of something I didn't understand.

TBH this is not something I have really played around with. Might be fun.

Thanks, Christian. That means a lot.

Honestly, these ideas never made sense to me in text form when I first read them. So many things musical DON'T, I guess.

Thanks again.

[christianm77]

You'd be wrong there, there are altered scales in Debussy, Ravel and Scriabin for sure. I have that on good, verified authority from Dmitri Tymoczko. No question.

Troll :-)

[christianm77]

Someone should run this by Hal Galper. Acc'd to Jazz: The Rough Guide, Herb Pomeroy was born in 1930, and started teaching at Berkelee in 1955.

The Rough Guide's entry on Hal Galper states that he was at Berkelee from 1955-8, and had "private tuition with Jaki Byard, Herb Pomeroy and others", and also that he also played with the Pomeroy big band and small group in Boston in the late 50's.

He (Galper) has also thought a lot about these issues, e.g. his statement on one of his video clips "there is absolutely no historical justification for CST theory...that it is bogus". (I'm quoting his sense, and may be off by a few words. You can find this clip for yourself on his site--his basic message is pretty clear.)

I've seen the 'alt. scale' referred to as the "Pomeroy scale".

PS: Pomeroy passed away in 2007, while Hal Galper is still alive and well.

Good shout

[ragman1]

Troll :-)

I beg your pardon? Are you trying to be clever?

Dmitri Tymoczko - Wikipedia

Dmitri Tymoczko, Composer and Theorist

dmtri tymoczko - Bing video

Watch TEDx Martha’s Vineyard - Martha's Vineyard Times

[Jonah]

Reference to authority is not the best argument in this case. It would be great to give reference to the music of ravel for example. It shoud not be a big problem.

[Lobomov]

Reference to authority is not the best argument in this case. It would be great to give reference to the music of ravel for example. It shoud not be a big problem.

Yes this. Just point to pieces of music by Ravel where the altered scale is used

[ragman1]

I've already done that upthread. It was ignored.

The point about authority is taken but the man's an expert. I wouldn't ask him to sort through a lot of complex music just for our benefit. This is his subject. If he says (as others have too) that Ravel and other composers used the altered scale I'd be sorely tempted to accept it. In fact I'd probably be rather conceited not to.

He's not part of this thread and gains nothing either way. He's certainly not trying to impress anybody. I'm obviously not advocating credulity but when doctors, consultants and other specialists tell you what's what it's foolish to reject it without serious consideration.

As to the idea that he's a troll, I have nothing to say. It's really extremely stupid.

[ragman1]

It's reassuring to know that Christian, who undoubtedly graces us with his presence here, knows more than this guy.

I'll tell you what it means. It means Debussy, Ravel and Scriabin were using the altered scale long before the 50's. Sorted.

[Jonah]

The point about authority is taken but the man's an expert. I wouldn't ask him to sort through a lot of complex music just for our benefit. This is his subject. If he says (as others have too) that Ravel and other composers used the altered scale I'd be sorely tempted to accept it. In fact I'd probably be rather conceited not to.

I respect any opinion and expertise, I use authority as a direction to think about. But what I like about arts is that anyone's opinion (expert, amateur, pro, profane) may turn out to have real value...
Besides it's not physics there's always a record and a score and our ears to make our own judgement (unsing authority as a guide for example)...

With arts it is often not about knowledge and expertise... I sw pros who wrote books and did not dig a simple musical form, and profane people (even not music admirers) who heard everything in complex music.. you never know.

And on teh forum we have good possiblity to protect our views and opinions with our own arguments. Or just share with impression.. i's ok for me too - I do not demand that people would proove anything. But reference to authority is always tricky..
You see the fact that Tymoczko said that Rave used altered scale does helps only in some scientific work to refer to.. for it makes sense only as: hm... ok the guy must know what he talks about, let's check and see if we hear this altered scale in that piece

I did not notice your linek before.. sorry. I will check it because I am interested.

As per Christian's remark, as far as I got to know him... I just believe he did it with a good share of humor... do not take it so seriously.

As I remember you also have a good sense of humor. Do you?

[christianm77]

Reference to authority is not the best argument in this case. It would be great to give reference to the music of ravel for example. It shoud not be a big problem.

Well so you'd think.

Just to make it clear, I'm completely open to either possibility and emotionally invested in neither - either Ravel used the altered scale or he didn't. Either result is interesting.

The burden of proof is on the former case, though.

DT's paper seemed to be straining a point to me. After all you can find a whole tone or pentatonic scale easily enough in Debussy, say, without resorting to several pages of abstruse justifying music theory.

Is that fair, has anyone else read the paper?

[christianm77]

I've already done that upthread. It was ignored.

Could you do me a favour and tell me what post it was? I didn't see any example of Ravel's music with the altered scale, so apologies if you posted a clear musical example and it was overlooked.

Also, what were your opinions on DT's paper having read it?