When did Jazz Musicians start using the altered scale?

[grahambop]

There's a cool bit in Peter Warlock's 'Capriol Suite' (1926) where he quite clearly plays the 'Hendrix chord' on the strings.

[christianm77]

Here's a good example of what was going on with altered dominants in 1958:

And in 1956

[christianm77]

We have one!

In Sweet Sue, check out that great Miles phrase at 0:24

C Eb G Bb Ab, G F Eb Db B Bb Ab Bb

Which is over a Cm/G7 vamp, so kind of G7...

So...

4 b6 1 b3 b2 is just C Reg minor

But

1 b7 b6 b5 3 #2 b2 #2

Well if that isn't the altered scale, I don't know what is.

[ragman1]

Is there a clear musical example of Debussy using this scale, anyone?

I haven't time to do extensive googling. There are certainly image examples of his use of the whole-tone scale. Apart from a mention in Wiki there's this Berklee article which also mentions 'sporadic use'.

Altered scale - BerkleeJazz Wiki

[christianm77]

I haven't time to do extensive googling. There are certainly image examples of his use of the whole-tone scale. Apart from a mention in Wiki there's this Berklee article which also mentions 'sporadic use'.

Altered scale - BerkleeJazz Wiki

Unless one of these articles can link to a specific musical example, I kind of think it might be bullshit bruv, as we say around my ends.

I mean an article written in 1996 - furthermore one that seems to be written in advanced academic music theory gibberish? Nah. Everyone knew about Debussy's whole tone scales. Surely there's a clear example?

[tomems]

My improv teacher in college (a trumpet player) said that Coltrane would stay up all night practicing altered scales... Not sure if that's true...

[bako]

google search on Debussy and the whole tone scale turned up this rather long Wiki list:

List of pieces which use the whole tone scale - Wikipedia

[christianm77]

google search on Debussy and the whole tone scale turned up this rather long Wiki list:

List of pieces which use the whole tone scale - Wikipedia

Cheers!

TBH I learned about that in GCSE Music... I think this is well known... Altered scale? Hmm. I'd love to be shown a clear example. I can't see why someone wouldn't have used this scale back then, but I don't remember it being mentioned in any of the texts on modern classical I looked at over the years... Seems like a jazz thing?

[Alter]

Wes plays the altered scale very often over dominant chords. I've never really checked where the particular scale use originated, it would be interesting to find out.

Personally, i 've always seen the altered scale as a scale that ''alters" the 9 and 5 of the chord, so i think of it as 1, b9-#9, 3, b5-#5, b7 (no 4 or 6), and i base it on the 1 3 #5 b7 arpeggio. I think altered dominants, no matter what kind of scale/alteration you use on them, are a huge part of jazz harmony, as they are the beginning of breaking out from traditional harmonic voicings, chord resolution, movement and substitution, out playing, etc..

[christianm77]

Wes plays the altered scale very often over dominant chords. I've never really checked where the particular scale use originated, it would be interesting to find out.

In the words of Wikipedia, citation needed :-) Just point me in the direction of a solo, doesn't need to be an exact musical example.

I've not run into Wes using an altered scale, but I've transcribed only a few choruses of his playing, really. I've heard Wes use the whole tone - and interestingly too.

[yaclaus]

Let's do a treasure hunt for the altered scale pre 1970s

It's late on the continent, I'll try with Wes tomorrow

[Alter]

for example, on 4 on 6 here, he often uses the altered scale over the last II-V (A-7b5 - D7) returning to the G-7 chord at the end of sections.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

G altered scale: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G
Db lydian dominant scale: Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db

Sam Ding!

So if the soloist is thinking "tritone sub, Db7" while the accompanist is still thinking "good old G7", you are likely to get Db mixolydian or Db lydian dominant (!!!) over G7, and the later is exactly the altered sound. It's got to happen often, even back in Bird's day.

[matt.guitarteacher]

A real Nerd question, true, but not one without any relevance to music.

What I am interested to know is - when did the unadulterated altered scale tonality become a thing in jazz music?

I'm not talking about the odd 1-b9-#9-3 tetrachord that could be parented by other scales, I'm talking about unambiguous altered scale tonality with the b9, #9, b5 and b13.

In thinking about this, I'd say that all of the above tones are present in much of earlier music, with one huge qualifier: they had resolution pitches to the target chord as well. They're all very common in the context of approach tone chromatics.

I think done other questions are things like:

* Was the more complete collection of altered pitches initially viewed as sort of "unresolved" or maybe DELAYED resolution of approach tones?

* At what point were these approach tones organized and abstracted into a basic dominant palette in its own right , complete with harmonic implications for jazz harmony?

* How and when did we arrive at altered as being the most prevalent organizer for outside pitches. ( Seem to remember a Christian Miller video addressing some of that sort of thing).

[christianm77]

@Alter I had a listen and a glance at the transcription - can't see too much in the way of altered action in this one, but I'll dig a bit deeper maybe tomorrow...

[christianm77]

G altered scale: G Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F G
Db lydian dominant scale: Db Eb F G Ab Bb Cb Db

Sam Ding!

So if the soloist is thinking "tritone sub, Db7" while the accompanist is still thinking "good old G7", you are likely to get Db mixolydian or Db lydian dominant (!!!) over G7, and the later is exactly the altered sound. It's got to happen often, even back in Bird's day.

If you read the thread above you'll see I've already examined a couple of instances of the Db mix/G7 thing. It's very similar to the G altered scale, for sure. The difference is that naughty Gb.

Db lydian dom/G (i.e. G altered) - not as common as you'd/I'd think. #11 does not tend to be a harmonic tone so much on dominant chords in the bop era, though it does crop up.... 11 (!) on the other hand is frequently used as a harmonic tone usually via b7 sub etc.

On another thread we had the mysterious case of the B triad on G7 from Wes. This is a b7 sub of Db7 among other things. The 11 here becomes a major 7 on G7 (Gb/F#). The fact is contrary to modern jazz theory, these sounds are somewhat embraced during this era.

The Lyd Dom/Altered scales specifically avoid these notes, of course. The altered scale is kind of designed to avoid maj7 on V7, despite as we've seen this is a feature of melodies like Night in Tunisia.

I think these issues would be key actually in the development of the altered scale sound as opposed to the tritone sub.

At least from the stuff I've looked at (which is always the caveat.)

[PMB]

I don't think it was used much before bebop, i.e. Parker. Classical composers like Debussy were using it - or at least the super-lochrian - before that but the actual altered scale, i.e. the mm a half up from the dominant root, wasn't prevalent before bebop. Open to correction, naturally.

Exactly. In the jazz world it was once known as the Pomeroy scale but classical theorists called it the Ravel scale.

[christianm77]

Exactly. In the jazz world it was once known as the Pomeroy scale but classical theorists called it the Ravel scale.

I have never come across this in any classical theory books I've read - what books is it mentioned in? Might help me gain an insight...

[PMB]

I'd have to check. Certainly, a lot of older jazz texts list the name 'Ravel Scale' as an alternative:

Scales for Jazz Improvisation: A Practice Method for All Instruments - Dan Haerle - Google Books

[ragman1]

it might be bullshit

Don't tell me, tell Berklee! They wrote it.

[christianm77]

Don't tell me, tell Berklee! They wrote it.

So what?

What did Ravel write?

[PMB]

I've been teaching Four on Six to a student recently so checking out Wes pretty closely. The closest I've noticed to a D altered scale is the descending run at bar 48 (0'48" in the video) from the Smokin' at the Half Note version, although it's missing the Ab - not surprising as the band is playing an A-7b5 at that point:

It seems more likely that Wes would play the altered scale over the substitute Eb-7 Ab7 bars and sure enough, he plays a fragment in bar 42 (0'42"). However, that's probably Wes' fave lick and he used it everywhere on minor and related dominant chords.

[christianm77]

I've been teaching Four on Six to a student recently so checking out Wes pretty closely. The closest I've noticed to a D altered scale is the descending run at bar 48 (0'48" in the video) from the Smokin' at the Half Note version, although it's missing the Ab - not surprising as the band is playing an A-7b5 at that point:

It seems more likely that Wes would play the altered scale over the substitute Eb-7 Ab7 bars and sure enough, he plays a fragment in bar 42 (0'42"). However, that's probably Wes' fave lick and he used it everywhere on minor and related dominant chords.

Thanks! I know this solo rather better.

Yeah I thought so - if there's no b5, it's G Reg minor (see above)

G A Bb C D Eb F F#

THE scale of bop minor ii-V's

Bar 42 no clincher as you say. Could be Eb dorian/Ab mix?

[PMB]

We have one!

In Sweet Sue, check out that great Miles phrase at 0:24

C Eb G Bb Ab, G F Eb Db B Bb Ab Bb

Which is over a Cm/G7 vamp, so kind of G7...

So...

4 b6 1 b3 b2 is just C Reg minor

But

1 b7 b6 b5 3 #2 b2 #2

Well if that isn't the altered scale, I don't know what is.

I reckon Gil Evans might be the link here. Evans is quoted in Hajdu's book on Strayhorn, recalling "from the moment I first heard 'Chelsea Bridge', I set out to do that. That's all I did - that's all I ever did - try to do what Billy Strayhorn did". In Hajdu's opinion, "there is more Debussy than Ellington in Chelsea Bridge". What's interesting is that the tune begins with a clear ascending Bb melodic minor scale (leading to an Ebmaj7#11). Not altered admittedly, but from the same gene pool. Gil was working with Miles in 1958 on the album Porgy and Bess - from the same year as your example - and his tune Gone from that album (the only number not by Gershwin) opens with an equally clear descending D altered scale:

[christianm77]

*Strokes beard with interest.*