Phrygian mode over major chord, does this make sense?

**mr. beaumont** · 01-31-2017, 09:05 PM

Phrygian sounds great over that change. Never suggested it was a "Phrygian tune."

**mr. beaumont** · 01-31-2017, 09:15 PM

No need to shut up, I was just trying to give the OP a little Phrygian fodder.

Truthfully, it sounds to me like playing scales over tunes is the wring direction to push him. I hate ducking people ip.

It's a worthwhile discussion though...what the notes tell us versus what the players tell us.

**mr. beaumont** · 01-31-2017, 11:01 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

Maybe the end vamp of Wayne Shorter's Ana Maria (if I recall correctly) would be good Phrygian fodder.

But that tune's...tough!

**Noah D'Innocenzo** · 02-01-2017, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by tomems

I have been a jazz beginner for 16 years! If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't come to this site... Certainly chord tones are where it's at but that doesn't sound very Phrygian to me. I like the sound of an E chord with the b9 over it...

Here's my 2 cents: I disagree with some of what's being said here. If you can reduce changes, by all means reduce them! There is no need to play every-single-damn-change. No need to do it. We're trying to make music here and the most important thing is that it's MELODIC. If you can reduce 4 bars of music to one scale, do it, but make a nice melody out of it.

With that being said, the historical context so far has been pretty on point. The scale that we refer to as "phrygian dominant" or "spanish phrygian" is the 5th mode of the Harmonic Minor scale. So if we're dealing with a E or E7 chord, the reference point would be A Harmonic Minor. What's going on in these spanish sounding tunes is they've made the V chord sound like "home" instead of making it sound like the last stop before home. So, if you wanted, you could play B-7(b5) to E7(b9) licks and they'd work.

Another scale to check out though is the Hungarian Minor: it's my preferred mode of choice for these type of situations. It's the exact same as Phrygian Dominant except it has a Maj7 instead of a b7.

Hungarian Minor: E F G# A B C D#

To me, having another min3 in the scale from the C to D# makes it even more Eastern sounding. Give it a try!

In terms of progression, modal tunes tend to vamp 2 chords. Try E to F (just triads or 7th if you want.) Also try E to D-. Maybe make a 4 bar phrase like this: E F E D-

**tomems** · 02-01-2017, 11:21 AM

Thanks Noah. I'm all about reducing the changes. I had a string last year about playing over fast ii Vs. Conclusion: just play the V and (mostly) ignore the ii.

**mr. beaumont** · 02-01-2017, 11:32 AM

I have a different take on this...don't start reducing the changes until you can hit 'em. But then, reduce away.

Basically, my take on playing is to get to the point of where you can make every change...and then don't ever do that.

**Noah D'Innocenzo** · 02-01-2017, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by tomems

Conclusion: just play the V and (mostly) ignore the ii.

Totally agree! And no problem, my pleasure!

**Noah D'Innocenzo** · 02-01-2017, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Basically, my take on playing is to get to the point of where you can make every change...and then don't ever do that.

Truthfully, I agree with you! You should be able to make all of the changes just in case you want to.

**jads57** · 02-01-2017, 03:15 PM

You say Potato and I say Potato.......... I keep finding there is only variables, just in how language works. The real problem comes down to actually playing Pop music that uses more complex harmony compared to to more simple harmony we are use to hearing.

**ragman1** · 02-02-2017, 07:31 AM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

The melody may suggest this scale, but the Fma7 harmony does not, neither does the Em9 (with D natural) or EMa7...

I got the info here:

'The use of the Phrygian mode and the minor Gypsy scale[12] in this tune is also present in other "Spanish" works from those dates, like Davis's Sketches of Spain'

Nardis (composition) - Wikipedia

The E Phrygian mode is E F G A B C D E
The Gypsy scale is E F# G A A# B C D# E

Combining them, only two notes are left out, G# and C#. It's not suprising you hear the F# as well as FM7 and Em9.

However, it's true that G# appears in the EM7 but, either it doesn't really matter, or that's how the Flamenco-type progression is played, E Phrygian (natural G) over E maj or E7.

Apart from that I've no idea :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 02-02-2017, 09:05 AM

Well, again flamenco definitely raises that m3 to a M3.

I agree it doesn't matter though, all of these permutations work on the tune...though I play it all the time and never think about scales...the chords are juicy enough.

Here's a old video, for fun.

**matt.guitarteacher** · 02-02-2017, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Well, again flamenco definitely raises that m3 to a M3.

I agree it doesn't matter though, all of these permutations work on the tune...though I play it all the time and never think about scales...the chords are juicy enough.

Here's a old video, for fun.

I haven't played any Spanish except for the bits in the classical played in college . I would have assumed that it's just another eight note minor scale . Like bako posted above? If anything, that would at least seem to be implied by some of the chord structures. Enjoyed the video, as always.