Remembering The Modes on Guitar

[seagullc]

Hey guys, I fully understand the modes and how they are derived from the major scale but i'm having trouble quickly remembering them on the guitar fretboard. I understand the theory aspect of it and I can figure out each mode from the ionian major scale but i'm having trouble remembering a fingering for each mode independently. Does anyone have any tips of how I can do this? For my Humber guitar audition I'll need to be able to play each mode (and the modes of melodic minor also I believe) and obviously I can't sit there figuring them out, they need to be memorized and well practiced.

[Luan]

What you refer to is the patterns of the major scale starting on a different degree of it, which is the first step into modes but can generate a lot of confusion. In this moment I don't think of patterns when I play modes, I can play on 1 string or any way I want. Modes are just notes. D E F G A B C is a mode.
So, basically 1 pattern can be used for the 7 modes of each parent scale (major for example).
You can practice to play the patterns in the cycle of 4ths, that is a great way to learn them in every key. First C major, then F major, then Bb, Eb, Ab, Db, F#, B, E, A, D, G and you've ended. If they ask you to play the mixolydian mode in Ab you have to know that the mixolydian is the 5th mode, and in this case it would be of Db so you have to play the major scale of Db.
That is in VERY simple terms. Actually the truth is that you must play Ab mixolydian thinking in terms of chord tones and passing tones. The patterns are useful for some fast passages, etc.
However they are the typical start for knowing how to play modes. Now check what is exactly what they ask you to do in the audition. They ask you to play patterns or improvise in x mode?

[JohnW400]

You could try referencing all of them to either the major or pure minor (or pentatonic minor) scale so.....


Ionian = Major scale
Dorian = minor , raised 6th or pentatonic w/ 2 and 6th
Phrygian = minor w/b2
Lydian = major w/ raised 4th
Mixolydian = major w/ b7
Aeolen = pure minor oe Pentatonic w/ 2 and b6
Locrian = major starinb and ending on the 7th

This might help.

[gravitas]

I think what you really need is some good old fashioned muscle memory. The only way to get that is, well, to sit there and figure them out. No substitute for that.

Good luck!

-Alex

[bmanyanks]

I like JohnW's suggestion and tend to think of that a lot. After knowing your major and minor scale well, it only takes a little tweaking to get the other modes. And once you have those seven, learning the melodic minor modes can also be tweakings of those modes you just derived (eg: Lydian dominant, Locrian #2, etc). I find it easier to learn modes this way because you are also appreciating the types of intervals involved in each mode and how it affects it's brightness. Makes me memorize them easier. And when you have derived them, play them. A LOT.

[derek]

You could try referencing all of them to either the major or pure minor (or pentatonic minor) scale so.....


Ionian = Major scale
Dorian = minor , raised 6th or pentatonic w/ 2 and 6th
Phrygian = minor w/b2
Lydian = major w/ raised 4th
Mixolydian = major w/ b7
Aeolen = pure minor oe Pentatonic w/ 2 and b6
Locrian = major starinb and ending on the 7th

This might help.

This is exactly how I think of modes. Usually we all have the major and natural minor scales pretty well burned into our minds and fingers in at least 2 positions. So rather than trying to learn a bunch of new patterns, relate everything back to these and just see the different notes to add.

Good luck with it.

[gravitas]

I think it's easier to talk about mode formulas from the other side, ie, having already mastered the modes. The way I see modes is the same way you guys all see them- through the use of the formulas- but I remember my first guitar teacher trying to show me the modes this way, and with no point of reference I just got confused about what he was talking about. It wasn't until after I'd already started making my way through them that I made the connection.

From a teaching perspective, I'm kind of curious: did you all learn the modes this way? Or did you come at it from a different angle? It would be neat to find out, because it would maybe illuminate some of the archetypical ways of learning the modes that apply to different kinds of players

[bmanyanks]

When I first learned modes in my self-taught rock days, I unfortunately learned all of the typical "patterns" you see on websites and I applied them in the worst ways possible. Yes, I eventually became pretty good at knowing those shapes and being able to move up and down the neck. But I had zero understanding of how you can't just play any note in the C major scale and expect it to sound good on a D minor progression. Fortunately, when I started taking jazz lessons (out of frustration for my inability to advance), I was taught how important it was to understand how to target chord tones and see the intervals in the modes.

My teacher basically did the whole "derive it yourself" type of thing. But he made me chart each position out and practice playing them over simple vamps. That was where the muscle memory came in. Playing a major scale in all seven positions over a progression, playing a dorian scale in all positions, etc. Whenever I expressed concern about being locked into patterns, he told me it's always important to see the notes but every guitarist will naturally have those patterns to work off of. So I didn't just noodle up and down those scale patterns, but I worked on arppegiating within them, looking at intervals, and seeing what else was going on. Understanding what you're doing versus just memorizing the shapes is what will get you going in the long run.

In short: should have had a teacher from the beginning.

[JohnW400]

I learned modes by starting in the key of C and then starting closest to the nut, working my way up the neck and memorizing the finger patterns. Then I moved them through the cycle of 4ths.

I did this with 9 different fingerings. 4 fingerings on the 6th, then 5th and one on the 4th.

However the Lydian and Mixolydian where the easiest for me to remember thinking about sharping the 4 or lowering the 7th. The minors weren't that easy, the phrygian being the toughest if I recall.

After I was comfortable knowing the fingerings I then played them off a stationary root changing mode rather than starting note.

My solution to the OP is based on the assumption that he already knows the major scale and minor pentatonic.

This "formula" is also great for coming up with synthetic type scales to fit certain sounds. Want something for a 13th # 11 with a #9 sound?

Lydian Dominant with a #2

You can also apply this to pentatonic and haxatonic style scales

[seagullc]

You could try referencing all of them to either the major or pure minor (or pentatonic minor) scale so.....


Ionian = Major scale
Dorian = minor , raised 6th or pentatonic w/ 2 and 6th
Phrygian = minor w/b2
Lydian = major w/ raised 4th
Mixolydian = major w/ b7
Aeolen = pure minor oe Pentatonic w/ 2 and b6
Locrian = major starinb and ending on the 7th

This might help.

This post was the most useful to me so far. Maybe I wasn't clear but I already understand the modes, i'm just having trouble remembering quick fingerings for them on the guitar fretboard. In my audition i'll need to play each mode of major, minor, and melodic minor scales in 2 octaves ascending and descending

John thinking of them that way might help me remember fingerings quicker, especially for Locrian it is nice to think of it that way instead of major with b2 b3 b5 b6 b7

[Luan]

In that case search for the 3 notes per string patterns and use them.

[JazzGuitarist]

You don't need to know the modes in order to play them. Simply put, if the chord changes are diatonic, stick to the major scale of the key, and you will be playing each mode correctly.

In an audition situation, why not just start the ionian at different scale degrees to produce your modes? You can move up the neck to a different position with the same ionan scale every 2-3 modes so you're not being cheap and just using the same fingering for them all. That way you only have to memorize 4-5 positions of the same scale, which is useful in many other ways.

[Luan]

You don't need to know the modes in order to play them. Simply put, if the chord changes are diatonic, stick to the major scale of the key, and you will be playing each mode correctly.

It's not that easy. You have to be very lucky to not hit notes that will sound VERY bad.

[JohnW400]

In an audition situation, why not just start the ionian at different scale degrees to produce your modes? You can move up the neck to a different position with the same ionan scale every 2-3 modes so you're not being cheap and just using the same fingering for them all. That way you only have to memorize 4-5 positions of the same scale, which is useful in many other ways.

If I were at judging at this audition and a player came in and did not know his modes like he knows his name.... He wouldn't pass. That being said there are those schools that will take anybody if the price is right and admissions are down.

There is no magic wand, no potion or elixer. If the OP is serious about music school and acarrer as a musician then he/she needs to spend the time to get their s#$t together on the instrument and know the basic requirements that the university has set as the minimum.

If they cannot do that or are unwilling to do that then they should think about a different field of study. Even one in music but not performance. Something like recording, publishing or event managemnt.

I'm not saying this to be harsh or give anybody a hard time. Quite the opposite. I'm telling it like it is so that no one wastes money, time and energy on a subject when they may be better suited to do something else.

I went to school with some serious , kick ass players like Saxafonist Bill Evans. Out of all my "classmates" he bacame the most famous but after him, a good pecentage of us are not making our incomes from music. We are mostly ''part-time pros" picking up occasional gigs or students. Some don't even play that much anymore.

If you think that Bill Evans didn't know these basics going in, think again.

[seagullc]

Playing the ionian scale from the general key isn't the same as playing the modes of each chord. The target notes change in each mode (3rd and 7th) and gives an entirely different color. That's why playing A minor over a C major chord can sound entirely different from C major over C major, despite the two scales having the same notes.

For the audition, I definately don't want to just play starting on each note from the Ionian scale, because that will just be figuring it out as I go along which is what I'm trying to avoid. I'm ready to do any work I have to in order to be prepared for this audition, that's why I'm posting about this.

I already know my arpeggios in 4 positions so maybe adding in the extra notes to form a mode would be a quick way to remember them.

[bmanyanks]

For the audition, I definately don't want to just play starting on each note from the Ionian scale, because that will just be figuring it out as I go along which is what I'm trying to avoid. I'm ready to do any work I have to in order to be prepared for this audition, that's why I'm posting about this.

I already know my arpeggios in 4 positions so maybe adding in the extra notes to form a mode would be a quick way to remember them.

How quickly are you talking about memorizing the fingerings? Days? Weeks? Hours? Here's something I used to do (and will revisit) to memorize and practice modes:

Since you can play a mode in any of seven positions (as in your index finger can begin on one of seven different notes on the low E string), go through all 7 positions on all 7 modes. If you want to learn the Dorian mode fingerings, use BIAB or a looping pedal to record a vamp in whatever key you are practicing (an Fm7 for example), then play the Dorian mode from each position. It's always easiest to start with the root position (say, first fret), and then move up/down from there. Start on the second note of the Dorian scale and play around. Then third note, etc. Then switch modes when you are done with all 7 positions. Or switch modes and stay in the same position...

Not only are you practicing the fingerings (which is what you want for your audition), but you're getting used to the sound of the mode. You can start by just playing up and down the scale in that position. Then try playing arpeggios in that position to see what sounds good and to nail down that position. Whatever works. It's fun.

This is a total of 49 combinations (7 modes x 7 positions). If you practiced each one for 5 minutes, it would only take you a little more than 4 hours total. You're also practicing each shape seven times, so you'll really get those fingerings down through muscle memory. I just think that memorizing notes from a chart without practicing them in their context will actually be slower than taking the time to apply it. As Mick Goodrick would imply (for those who have "The Advancing Guitarist"), there are 7 days in each week, 7 modes, 7 positions... you can surely come up with a practice schedule

[JohnW400]

What finger and starting do you start your major scale on? The one you know the best.

Take that scale and start closest to the nut and play it in C. so if you're using 2/6 (2nd finger/ 6th string) Then the first mode will be G mixolydian. Now memrize whats' different between that scale and the G major Scale.

Move up to A and so the same. Move it up to B ans apply what I mentioned above. Now to C. (you got a break here) now D then e and F. Same drill. Do that until you have the fingerings down in C.

Also to break up the monotony, do some excercises like up 3 back 2 ( G A B, B C D, C D E, D E F, etc

Only after you have them down in C, then move them to F. etc. By then you should have the fingerings mastered so it's just a case of moving them around

[jonasfixe]

This post was the most useful to me so far. Maybe I wasn't clear but I already understand the modes, i'm just having trouble remembering quick fingerings for them on the guitar fretboard. In my audition i'll need to play each mode of major, minor, and melodic minor scales in 2 octaves ascending and descending

John thinking of them that way might help me remember fingerings quicker, especially for Locrian it is nice to think of it that way instead of major with b2 b3 b5 b6 b7

Yes definitely that's the way to think; since we already know major (ionian= 1 2 3 4 5 6 7) The idea is to memorize the alterations to this pattern. And same four fingering: if you use these fingers for ionian:
2
1 2 4
1 3 4

Then for instance, since mixolydian is 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7 , you only have to change finger 3 to finger 2:
2
1 2 4
1 2 4

So my advice is to memorize one each time, then move to the other. Use this order:
Ionian (fingers 2 4 1 2 4 1 3 4)
Aeolian (fingers 1 3 4 1 3 4 1 3)
Mixolydian (fingers 2 1 2 4 1 2 4)
Dorian (fingers 1 3 4 1 3 < 1 2 4)
Lydian (fingers 2 1 3 4 1 3 4)
locrian (fingers 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 3)
phrigian (fingers 1 2 4 1 3 4 1 3)

Also, my advice is to think of locrian as a 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7, or as a minor (aeolian/natural) with flat 2, and 5. Phrygian is a minor with a flat 2.

Remember, the idea is to memorize, not to rationalize each time you need!

[seagullc]

Thanks for all the tips guys. My audition won't be until next May so I still have lots of time to practice.

[voelker]

Take the time to really examine what’s different and whats the same. Music is all about changes, and more specifically, moving in 4ths/5ths. Other than F#(C tritone sub), F and G are the most distant/different from C. Hence the obvious sound of oscillating back and forth on a I,IV,V progression Anyway, you can use this piece of information to help organize your fingerings. If you start from the very beginning you don’t have to look much past the I,IV,V. 1= C Ionian on 5th and 6th string …done! 4= F Lydian, ionian with #4,Only mode without a perfect 4th … done! 5= G mixolydian, ionian with b7 … done! Ok that was easy, but notice that you already knew the fingering for G mixo. because you knew the 5th string pattern of C Ionian and the 1,2,3,4 intervals of mixo and ionian are the same (G)wAwBh(C)wDwEhF. So by starting on G,1,2,3,4, landing on C. repeating this interval pattern and continuing through the 5th string C ionian pattern, you have G mixo. Learning from this; notice that the same relationship occurs between Dorian/Aeolian and Phrygian/Locrian. So get your Dorian and Phrygian fingerings down on the 5th and 6th string, then starting on 6th string (A) play the1,2,b3,4 interval pattern from dorian, land on D, continue through the 5th string D dorian pattern and you have A Aeolian. Then start on 6th string B, play the 1,b2,b3,4 interval pattern from E Phrygian, land on E and continue through the 5th string E phrygian pattern. And that’s all the modes.

[fep]

I wrote a long post on this that you might find helpful. I think it's a very easy way to take what you already know and organize it into the modes...

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...alk-modes.html

[Luan]

One of the most important things is their sound. Each one has a very clear personality.

[mike walker]

One of the most important things is their sound. Each one has a very clear personality.

This.


Every mode of a maj scale has a character.

Sure ya can play in Cmaj for all the modes in Cmaj.
Like Em7 Am7 Dm7 G7 Cma7; all these chords will take the Cmaj scale.
But it will blur the lines. Nothing is really defined. But, more importantly, the way you add chromatic notes to each mode, so that each has its own spicy notes, is an art in itself. And to get further into that art, ya have to be able to delineate each sound, even without chords or bass notes to underpin it.

It takes work. Don't resist. Don't blur the lines. Don't ignore the subtleties.

[seagullc]

I wrote a long post on this that you might find helpful. I think it's a very easy way to take what you already know and organize it into the modes...

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/theor...alk-modes.html

Thanks, I'll check this out.




I don't need help understanding modes or their sound, I just need help in memorizing the fingerings.

[mike walker]

I guess this is the point...for me....When i play A Phrygian, i don't see F major.
I don't relate it to F maj.
Take the b2 of A Phrygian. What is it a b2 of?
It's a a b2 of A maj. All of the alterations are references to the A maj scale.

So, alter your maj scale fingerings to conform to the formula of a particular mode.
So when ya play G Lyd. Play your G maj fingerings and sharpen the 4th degree. Don't think Dmaj, starting on G.