Embraceable You - second chord in progression

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 11:44 AM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Wow, another sharp cookie around here. What is 'SD'?

I don't think about this stuff myself, just use the original change or--in rare instances---one of my own or someone else's devising I like better.

I remember Gerald Wilson saying in an interview about how the songwriter himself doesn't always use the best changes (he was talking about ELLINGTON!). I guess that's why God, in her wisdom, created arrangers.

In my view melody is sacrosanct, unless you're a Paul Desmond---and who among us is? Melody more so than changes. The public and especially players (singers too?) will make 'editorial' corrections' on your changes, if they don't wash---just as they do with lyrics (another topic for another day)...

SD = Sub Dominant
Aka the IV chord

Yeah i agree the melody is the king
Melody has the harmony in it
Melody has the rhythm in it

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 11:54 AM

Originally Posted by pingu

Melody has the harmony in it
Melody has the rhythm in it

Exactement...

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

Have you tried harmonic major on the biii diminished? Meaning D harmonic major (A mixolydian b9) on the Bbdim7.

Getting dizzy.

Just hear some good notes and play 'em.

Geez...

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 12:09 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Getting dizzy.

Just hear some good notes and play 'em.

Geez...

I know , someone said play a 'Phrygian Dominant'
To me the other day ...
Words can really hurt sometimes !
What you gonna do ?

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 12:10 PM

Originally Posted by fuzzthebee

Have you tried harmonic major on the biii diminished? Meaning D harmonic major (A mixolydian b9) on the Bbdim7.

Well you can do that.

But to my ears, harmonic major always sounds like a harmonic minor resolving to a major scale - it's the sound of IIm7b5 V7b9 Imaj7, not a scale in itself, a composite of two things.

So, Em7b5 A7b9 D7 is not a sound I like on that progression whether you conceptualise it as a harmonic major or a backdoor into D7 or whatever you use.

But that's the filter of where I am coming from. You might take my lines apart and go - oh look there he is playing the harmonic major.

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 12:15 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

SD = Sub Dominant
Aka the VI chord

Yeah i agree the melody is the king
Melody has the harmony in it
Melody has the rhythm in it

Sub dominant is IV. VI is sub mediant (not a term you hear much in jazz circles :-))

**mr. beaumont** · 09-30-2016, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

I know , someone said play a 'Phrygian Dominant'
To me the other day ...
Words can really hurt sometimes !
What you gonna do ?

At least Phrygian Dominant is descriptive-- you hear something like that and you can at least guess b2/b9, major 3rd, b7th...

The ones that throw me is when cats are like "I use the Hungarian Flying Lotus scale here, fifth mode"

**A. Kingstone** · 09-30-2016, 12:22 PM

"Why doesn't anybody play the flat three diminished anymore"?

- Barry Harris

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Sub dominant is IV. VI is sub mediant (not a term you hear much in jazz circles :-))

Wooops typo , sorry fellas , and girls
I'll edit that

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 12:25 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

At least Phrygian Dominant is descriptive-- you hear something like that and you can at least guess b2/b9, major 3rd, b7th...

The ones that throw me is when cats are like "I use the Hungarian Flying Lotus scale here, fifth mode"

Yeah OK fair doos
I call it Gypsy scale
That's not a pejorative term ,I love Django

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 12:29 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

I know , someone said play a 'Phrygian Dominant'
To me the other day ...
Words can really hurt sometimes !
What you gonna do ?

Well it's just labels.

The thing is you have to speak Greek to make it understood to all these guys from a chord scale background.

In fact I find myself jumping through weird terminological hoops. A lot of the discussion here seems to be on what we should call things.... Myself I think we should keep things relatively familiar. Match the scale names to the chord names as much as we can.

OK, these are the labels I use (after Barry Harris.)

C D E F G A B
I call this the C major scale. It works on the C major chord, and forms the basis of quite a lot melodic playing on simple progressions. For example 1-6-2-5, 2-5-1 and so on.
Berklee has a bunch of modes on different chord roots

A B C D E F# G#
I call this a A minor scale. You play it on the A minor chord. You can changes the F# or G# to an F or a G if you like.

C D E F G A Bb
I call this the C dominant scale. This scale runs on C7.
Berklee calls a C mixolydian.

E F G# A B C D
I call this E minor dominant. It is the scale you play on an E7b9 chord.
can called all sorts of things including Phrygian Dominant, Spanish Dominant, b9b13 scale.
(Barry Harris goes G dominant, raise G to G#, C dominant down to the third.)
You can put in the G if you like.

E minor dominant and G dominant are closely related. You see this relationship often in songs.

That's it for standards changes. These are the scales (transposed of course) I use for playing over most things. If I do something else, it's usually a 'special effect.'

That is when I want to run scales on things. Sometimes I don't want to.

If you understand the ii-V relationship with dominant chords, tritone subs and backdoors, you can play all the melodic minor harmony without ever having to learn those modes.

There's also special scales like whole tone, blues and so on. These can be added in for effect.

And that's what I teach. It's funny how people in colleges feel the need to make everything unfamiliar and difficult, isn't it.

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 12:35 PM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

"Why doesn't anybody play the flat three diminished anymore"?

- Barry Harris

Because Charlie Parker couldn't be arsed with it.

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 12:37 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

To add my 0.5 cent ...

I sometimes think the progression
vi , II7 , ii , V7

Gets overlooked by us lot here !
I don't hear much talk of it but its really common in tunes

To me , This is one of those disguised a bit...

Em, A7 ,Am,D7 can be
G A7 Am D7 can be
G , Bb dim , Amin ,D7

Well that's one way I hear it ....

PS the summaries of the three different ways
A dim operates are most welcolm tho
Many thanks guys

Well really it's just II7 V7 I. The minor sevenths are just for show.

**fasstrack** · 09-30-2016, 12:40 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

What you gonna do ?

Play, don't talk.
Easier said than done, I know: trying it myself with a ways to go.

'Little David Susskind
Shut up
Please don't talk

Little David Susskind
Eat first
Then you'll talk'

---Alan Sherman, My Son the Folksinger...

**Jonah** · 09-30-2016, 02:44 PM

my jazz guitar friend - we all are tired, old and overloaded with jazz progressions. our brains are tired and we do not smile that much like rockn'roll players. Lets take it less seriosly.
Bill is also not youngest anymore, but he keeps it simple
do you like it?

I like all Bill's solos from fretboard...

As per taking 'less seriously'... well I am what I am... and I take it the way it is for me... it is what music for me is... it is what I am doing that for...

Actually I did not get wgat you mean... I seem to describe very basic musical (even maybe just human) approach... much more simple and universal actually than triton sub or modal interchange

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 03:19 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Well really it's just II7 V7 I. The minor sevenths are just for show.

Do you mean
I , II7 , V7 , V7 , ?

ie without the min7 chords
(Its four bars and starts with a I chord
And it ends on a V7 chord)

So .....

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by fasstrack

Play, don't talk.
Easier said than done, I know: trying it myself with a ways to go.

'Little David Susskind
Shut up
Please don't talk

Little David Susskind
Eat first
Then you'll talk'

---Alan Sherman, My Son the Folksinger...

Yeah cool but here we talk ... Yada yada yooo

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

Do you mean
I , II7 , V7 , V7 , ?

ie without the min7 chords
(Its four bars and starts with a I chord
And it ends on a V7 chord)

So .....

Yeah. Actually II7 V7

**A. Kingstone** · 09-30-2016, 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Because Charlie Parker couldn't be arsed with it.

In Canada we speak English. I have no idea what language you English use.

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Yeah. Actually II7 V7

But it starts on a I chord ...

**pingu** · 09-30-2016, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

In Canada we speak English. I have no idea what language you English use.

At least you don't speak French !

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 04:11 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

But it starts on a I chord ...

Eh?

I II7 V7 then.

**christianm77** · 09-30-2016, 04:14 PM

Originally Posted by A. Kingstone

In Canada we speak English. I have no idea what language you English use.

I use unadulterated pure f***ing English. Essentially the idea is to fit in as much swearing as we can between syllables.

'can't be arsed with' = 'can't be bothered with'

A fine, and venerable idiom.