Playing Outside

[stworzenie]

I found many videos about this and all say the same thing
if you play the scale x
from the sound y
then you have to play the same scale x from y#

For example
Ionian from c ascending - Ionian from c# descending



Dorian from d ascending - dorian from d# descending

This means that both scales must be the same,such a rule?



What if I play dorian from D ascending and locrian from D# descending?


Then there will be mistake?

How to play outside professionally ?

[destinytot]

I'm interested in exploring this, too.

I rather suspect that elegant outside playing involves the smallest units skillfully woven together.

I really like Woody Shaw, and came across this (for me, trumpet is a better 'horn' for guitarists to emulate):

[eh6794]

This is a question we have all asked, and the only real answer is you will learn over time. It isn't really about playing the wrong notes, it is about harmony.

Play the C scale from the 5th string... sounds good? Now play the C scale and mix in the Ab. C, D, E, F, G, Ab, C, Eb, G... sounds even better? Now throw in the E scale. C, E and Ab are the augmented notes. Why does it sound good? I have no earthly idea, but I'm sure someone else knows.

Go to YouTube then search for "Drone Notes". Record yourself playing random, single line triads over the drone to understand how each one sounds over that particular note. Once you find a few things you like, come up with some longer lines like the one in the previous paragraph.

You can also listen to people on YouTube then slow them down to 50%. When you do that, the pitch stays the same. Figure out each note and contrast them to the tonal center. How does that Ab, C and Eb relate to the C scale?

I think an accomplished jazz professional would be the best place to learn, but if you are not in a position to invest that much, keep pushing forward; you will get it eventually.

[stworzenie]

Drone Notes?it sounds inviting
Here's what I found rummaging in network


It is important to note that some
tensions have more then one resolution possibility and others, namely the altered
tensions, only have one.

b9: resolves down half step to root
9: resolves up to 3 (or b3 in minor) or down a whole step to the root
#9: resolves up a half step to third.
11: resolves to 3 (or b3 in minor) or up to 5th (or b5 on`7b5 or °7 chords)
#11: resolves up a half step to the 5th
b13: resolves down a half step
13: resolves to the 5th or 7th


*Note that the 13th or b13th is typically an avoid note on minor chords but still can
sound great if these concepts are applied.


*These are just suggestions they are not concrete.
Some times the music calls for unresolved tensions. Use your ear.

*It is possible to resolve an altered tension to another, diatonic, tension.
For example, a #5 can resolve up to a 13 on a major chord because the 13 is a diatonic
tension contained in the Ionian chord scale.


*It is not necessary to resolve the altered tensions right away.
You can play the altered note, play a few more notes that are not its general resolution
play they resolution note (this is called indirect resolution).

[Nate Miller]

when I play outside, the chords are neither here nor there. Chords are what I am now "outside" of.

when I play out, I figure the changes are gone, so I'm just dividing up the octave, or filling in an arbitrary interval, and when you do that, then how you do it is your business.

this is where quartal harmony comes in real handy

this is also where the playing key on key stuff I learned from Stan comes in very handy

but there's loads of things to do, and the best part is that you yourself can have valid ideas that aren't out there on the internet, so explore and experiment

[Boston Joe]

this is also where the playing key on key stuff I learned from Stan comes in very handy

Can you elaborate on this, or point me to a thread where it's discussed?

[Nate Miller]

in theory look for "2+2=4"

but the idea is simply surerimposing one key on another. something like running through arpeggios of the triads of one key interspearsed with the other like

Cmaj, Ebmaj, Dmin , Fmin, ...etc.

or like George Van Epps displaced concept

Cmaj, Dmin, Ebmaj, Fmin, Gmin, Abmaj, Amin

you can have the bass line of one key with 3rds from the other key

really all sorts of things. but I found that I'm really maybe the only person who does this as I learned it from Stan Willis and Stan never got famous. He guarded a lot of his secrets and apparently only taught them to people he liked.

But that is what jazz was like before jazz got into academia and there was a market for publishing teaching methods.

[Boston Joe]

Thanks, I'll check it out.

[christianm77]

When you play outside in the UK, always ensure you have a circuit breaker on your plug board. Rain + electricity = bad news.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

When you play outside in the UK, always ensure you have a circuit breaker on your plug board. Rain + electricity = bad news.

I was going to say the neighbour will complain.

[Boston Joe]

When you play outside in the UK, always ensure you have a circuit breaker on your plug board. Rain + electricity = bad news.

Christian: For a couple of years I had a built-in-England Triumph motorcycle. It was a lovely bike, but it consistently stalled in the rain. On the Triumph owners' forum, I found that this was a known issue. I have wondered ever since... How is it that the English could build something that won't run in the rain? How did they even test ride them?

[christianm77]

Christian: For a couple of years I had a built-in-England Triumph motorcycle. It was a lovely bike, but it consistently stalled in the rain. On the Triumph owners' forum, I found that this was a known issue. I have wondered ever since... How is it that the English could build something that won't run in the rain? How did they even test ride them?

That was back before we lost the Empire.

[Boston Joe]

That was back before we lost the Empire.

No, no! This was a newer model. I think it was an '03. Unless you lost the empire some time after that. History never was my best subject.

[wolflen]

my take on "outside" playing

a quote I like a lot .. "to really know how to play outside..you really have to know how to play inside.."

the players that seem to weave melodic lines with both in and out flavors know how to get that effect and are confident in playing that style...its much more than just "playing a scale a half step away.."

getting "out" sounds to sound ok takes a lot of practice and a lot of experimentation .. and learning how to fall..and get back up again..and do it in tempo..

john scofield is such a player..he can create very melodic lines and suddenly dive off a cliff..and never get hurt...

I would listen to a lot of this style of playing...fusion style playing is a great place to hear this style in extended forms...it will use chord vamps as a harmonic backdrop and just run lines from the musicians improve skills .. to the other end of playing "out" .. that is the return to functional harmony that will sound "out" even though it is within a functional harmonic progression..

some players to listen to:

Hancock Corea Miles (of course) Wayne Shorter..Bill Evans..Michael Brecker.. Ben Monder and some early Steely Dan..great guitarist on many of their tunes with very cool lines

[destinytot]

One of my favourite examples of tension and release is on the Steps Ahead track Beirut - after the long opening pedal, once the movement begins. Sounds like pentatonics and chromatics to me.

Another is Benson with Dexter on the title track of Gotham City - Bb blues. Benson plays a simple B maj7 arp (ascending) over the turnaround and comes down chromatically over Bb7.

What I like about these examples is that they're over common progressions. Same goes for Brecker - I like the effect of his controlled outside playing on Michael Franks's 'sugary' songs. It's formulaic - and that's the point. It's repeatable.

But - for me - I like it kept on a leash, reined in. Short and powerful outside solo. (Like James Moody. Not like Wallace Roney.)

Here's the magnificent Woody Shaw:

[stworzenie]

Did I I mention about "opposite quality"?




1 - minor scales under major chords
2 - major scales under minor chords
3 - augmented scales under diminished chords
4 - diminished scales under augmented chords


but I'm not sure the last two points are also opposite quality


5 - minor scales under augmented and diminished chords
6 - major scales under augmented and diminished chords

[destinytot]

Did I I mention about "opposite quality"?




1 - minor scales under major chords
2 - major scales under minor chords
3 - augmented scales under diminished chords
4 - diminished scales under augmented chords


but I'm not sure the last two points are also opposite quality


5 - minor scales under augmented and diminished chords
6 - major scales under augmented and diminished chords

This looks so...'wrong' (in print/on the screen) - which is exciting! Thanks! I'm going to try some phrases - with​​ attitude!

[stworzenie]

He guarded a lot of his secrets and apparently only taught them to people he liked.

It's sick, sickness of ego "my secret, my music, my theory,everything is mine only mine,mine,mine"
Music is not the property of anyone such as oxygen and light

[christianm77]

Duncan Lamont's book 'Streefighter's guide to Improvisation' has some fun scales for mucking around with.

[Boston Joe]

I'm going to try some phrases - with​​ attitude!

Attitude is critical for outside playing. If you're tentative with it, it just sounds wrong. If you play it with balls, it sounds out but right.

[joe2758]

Duncan Lamont's book 'Streefighter's guide to Improvisation' has some fun scales for mucking around with.

Does he go over sonic booms?



I hope at least one person gets this

[Boston Joe]

Does he go over sonic booms?



I hope at least one person gets this

I prefer the Thousand Hand Slap.

[mr. beaumont]

Nice, a whole thread on playing out and nobody's given the smug cool-kid answer of "I don't hear any notes as outside" crap.

One thing I always like to try is a Howard Roberts idea--just messing with visual patterns. It really is all about how you get back in...

[Boston Joe]

Nice, a whole thread on playing out and nobody's given the smug cool-kid answer of "I don't hear any notes as outside" crap.

Well, actually...

(I kid... I kid...)

It seems like it's not so much notes, per se, that are outside. It's more like collections of notes - phrases and such that are outside. It's how you frame the collections that make it sound cool as opposed to, "What the crack is this guy playing?"

[destinytot]

I'd rather eat the meal than eat the description on the menu. It's in the music.