Playing Outside

**StanG** · 08-06-2016, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by destinytot

One of my favourite examples of tension and release is on the Steps Ahead track Beirut - after the long opening pedal, once the movement begins. Sounds like pentatonics and chromatics to me.

Another is Benson with Dexter on the title track of Gotham City - Bb blues. Benson plays a simple B maj7 arp (ascending) over the turnaround and comes down chromatically over Bb7.

What I like about these examples is that they're over common progressions. Same goes for Brecker - I like the effect of his controlled outside playing on Michael Franks's 'sugary' songs. It's formulaic - and that's the point. It's repeatable.

But - for me - I like it kept on a leash, reined in. Short and powerful outside solo. (Like James Moody. Not like Wallace Roney.)

Here's the magnificent Woody Shaw:

I was listening to this record yesterday (Gotham City), and was fully impressed by the assumeness of all the players. Off topic--there are a lot of great records by the greats recorded in the late 70's and 80's that sort of go under the radar, and Cedar Walton is on a lot of them.

Another example from that record, I think it is Blueswalk: Woody Shaw starts his solo with a blues figure, then takes a statement sequentially up in whole steps to meet the next chord. Another example of "have to know how to play inside to play outside." And outside is rarely truely "outside" but is exactly "in" whatever device/concept is being superimposed over the lead sheet harmony.

stworzenie · 08-06-2016, 02:08 PM

Jazz Q - Darmošlap - everything is so sooo 'outistic' and "wrong"

.........................................

Exteriorization Out-of-tonality experience

**StanG** · 08-06-2016, 02:17 PM

Personally, I love Kenny Garrett and was listening to African Exchange Student in the car today, but don't really think of him as an "outside" player, but I do think of him as continuing on in the school started by the early 60's Coltrane quartet, with lots of fourth stacks in the comping, Elvin Jones style volcanic drumming, modal or simplier harmonic forms, with the soloist superimposing lots of stuff--subdividing the octave, different rollilng pentatonics, etc that are in, then sort of out to create tension, etc., but always in a relationship to the original reference (as Reg would put it).

**jordanklemons** · 08-07-2016, 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by stworzenie

What if I play dorian from D ascending and locrian from D# descending?

Then there will be mistake?

Try it and find out. Best if you can record yourself and listen back. Does it sound good to you? That's the ultimate test.

Originally Posted by stworzenie

How to play outside professionally ?

[/QUOTE]

How to play outside professionally? My professional opinion... work on playing inside at the highest professional level you're capable of.

destinytot · 08-07-2016, 12:24 PM

Originally Posted by StanG

Personally, I love Kenny Garrett and was listening to African Exchange Student in the car today, but don't really think of him as an "outside" player, but I do think of him as continuing on in the school started by the early 60's Coltrane quartet, with lots of fourth stacks in the comping, Elvin Jones style volcanic drumming, modal or simplier harmonic forms, with the soloist superimposing lots of stuff--subdividing the octave, different rollilng pentatonics, etc that are in, then sort of out to create tension, etc., but always in a relationship to the original reference (as Reg would put it).

I love this:

stworzenie · 08-07-2016, 03:46 PM

I wonder about buying George Garzone & The Triadic Chromatic Approach DVD
but (two "bats" )

First "bat" is - I'm a guitarist,Garzone is saxophonist,whether it is worth spend money?

Second "bat" is - This DVD is (for me) damn expensive

...

Maybe someone has used and would sell me cheaper?
...or make copy [hush hush]

**Boston Joe** · 08-07-2016, 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by stworzenie

I wonder about buying George Garzone & The Triadic Chromatic Approach DVD
but (two "bats" )

First "bat" is - I'm a guitarist,Garzone is saxophonist,whether it is worth spend money?

Second "bat" is - This DVD is (for me) damn expensive

...

Maybe someone has used and would sell me cheaper?
...or make copy [hush hush]

To your first "bat" - The concept is really simple, and can be explained in a few sentences. Getting it under your fingers is another story, but it works really well on the guitar. It's also great for helping you get your triads together.

As to your second "bat" - I didn't get the DVD. I've been trying to go it alone just working things out from the conceptual framework.

Let me know if you want me to explain the concept to you. If you do decide to get the DVD, please let me know what you think of it. It IS expensive as these things go, and I'd rather not drop the cash, but if it's worthwhile, I'll do it.

destinytot · 08-07-2016, 06:16 PM

I almost forgot this - top of my list of faves:

stworzenie · 08-08-2016, 09:15 AM

When I was kid I waited for this TV program because of music theme,very 'outi'
The author is Stefan Zawarski.

Let me know if you want me to explain the concept to you.

Sure

the most difficult is that in english

but I try

Principles of The Random Triadic Approach
Principles of The Random Chromatic Approach
Displaced Permutation,inversions,avoid repeated patterns etc

**Boston Joe** · 08-08-2016, 09:22 AM

Originally Posted by stworzenie

Let me know if you want me to explain the concept to you.

Sure

the most difficult is that in english

but I try

It's pretty simple:

1. Play a triad. Any triad, any inversion.

2. From the last note of your triad, move up or down a half step. This note is the first note of the next triad.

3. Build another triad based on the note that you moved to. It can also be any triad, any inversion EXCEPT that it can't be the same inversion that the last triad was.

So for example, if you start with a C major triad in root position, C-E-G, your next note must be F# or Ab. Let's use F#. So we could build a D major triad in first inversion from there. F#-A-D. From there, you must go to Db or Eb. The new triad must be in root position or second inversion.

Does that make sense. It's a very simple idea, but very difficult to master in practice.

According to Garzone, you do this without necessarily making any reference to the underlying harmony. It's very out sounding.

stworzenie · 08-08-2016, 09:56 AM

EXCEPT that it can't be the same inversion that the last triad was.
we could build a D major triad in first inversion from there. F#-A-D.

First inversion is F#-A-D? Not A-D-F#?

if you start with a C major triad in root position, C-E-G, your next note must be F# or Ab.
Like this?

Two root positions ( c,e,g & f#,a#,d#) will repeat and I should play c,e,g & ,a#,d#,f#?

and what should I do next if I want make Displaced Permutation

PS.

**Boston Joe** · 08-08-2016, 10:17 AM

Originally Posted by stworzenie

EXCEPT that it can't be the same inversion that the last triad was.
we could build a D major triad in first inversion from there. F#-A-D.

First inversion is F#-A-D? Not A-D-F#?

Yes. Root position: D-F#-A; First inversion: F#-A-D; Second inversion: A-D-F#.

if you start with a C major triad in root position, C-E-G, your next note must be F# or Ab.

Like this?

Probably you shouldn't use triplets. The idea is that you want to displace each triad. If you do them in groups of four, you'd get:

C-E-G-F#; A-D-Eb-Ab; C... etc

See how the second triad starts on the second half of the second beat (assuming those are eighth notes), and the third triad starts on the first half of the fourth beat?

Two root positions ( c,e,g & f#,a#,d#) will repeat and I should play c,e,g & ,a#,d#,f#?

F#-A#-D# is a first inversion triad. (D# minor). So you're okay there.

It looks like you need to do some work on spelling triads and how inversion work. If the root note is the lowes note, it's root position. If the third is the lowest note, it's first inversion. If the fifth is the lowest note, it's second inversion.

stworzenie · 08-09-2016, 04:55 AM

I just want to know if first triad begins on tonics
does it mean second triad also must?

From Cmajor to F#major (or G#major)

ceg - f#a#c# / g#b#d#

or
if first triad begins on tonics
second triad must begins on third or fifths?

From Cmajor to Dmajor(f#,a,d) or Emajor (g#,b,e) - third

From Cmajor to Bmajor(f#,b,d#) or C#major (g#,c#,f) - fifths

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 06:32 AM

Hey stworzenie,

Didn't want to copy any pages of Duncan's book, especially as I know the guy, but in any case copying jazz artists books is a bit lame IMO. These guys aren't millionaires. But I hope he wouldn't mind too much if I give one of his basic scales:

C D E F F# G# A# B

You will notice it's the first four notes of the major scale glued to another one a semitone above the last note of the first. The two key centres are a tritone apart. So far, nothing weird. This would make a good altered dominant scale choice.

His book is lots of anecdotes, stories and bits of practical advice on playing. I doubt it would appeal to someone looking for an overview on how to play jazz.

On the other hand - Duncan's instructions are to play this in any key, over any chord, and see what happens. The idea is this scale hasn't got much in the way of tonal gravity, so it should be an interestingly ambiguous sound.

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 06:33 AM

Originally Posted by stworzenie

I just want to know if first triad begins on tonics
does it mean second triad also must?

From Cmajor to F#major (or G#major)

ceg - f#a#c# / g#b#d#

or
if first triad begins on tonics
second triad must begins on third or fifths?

From Cmajor to Dmajor(f#,a,d) or Emajor (g#,b,e) - third

From Cmajor to Bmajor(f#,b,d#) or C#major (g#,c#,f) - fifths

The second.

**bako** · 08-09-2016, 07:36 AM

C D E F F# G# A# B

The tetrachords are each derived from 2 keys each.

C D E F G A B C

F G A Bb C D E F

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The combined scales can be:

C and F#
C and B
F and F#
F and B

triads:

C+ Do D+ E E+ Fo Fm F#+ G#o G#+ A# A#+ Bo Bm

7ths:

C7+ Cma7+ Do Dm7b5 D7+ E7 E7+ FoMa7 FmMa7 F#7+ F#ma7 G#o G#m7b5 G#7+ A#7 A#7+ BoMa7 BmMa7

Now go write a hit song.....

**Boston Joe** · 08-09-2016, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

The second.

Correct. However, stworzenie, you're not limited to major triads. You can use anything. Major, Minor, Augmented or Diminished.

I particularly like the sound of augmented triads, although you don't want to use too many of them together, because they invert symmetrically, there's no difference between inversions, so you just end up getting a bunch of augemented triads a half step apart.

But alternating them with other triads works great. Like, major-augmented-minor-augmented, etc.

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by bako

The tetrachords are each derived from 2 keys each.

C D E F G A B C

F G A Bb C D E F

F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#

B C# D# E F# G# A# B

The combined scales can be:

C and F#
C and B
F and F#
F and B

triads:

C+ Do D+ E E+ Fo Fm F#+ G#o G#+ A# A#+ Bo Bm

7ths:

C7+ Cma7+ Do Dm7b5 D7+ E7 E7+ FoMa7 FmMa7 F#7+ F#ma7 G#o G#m7b5 G#7+ A#7 A#7+ BoMa7 BmMa7

Now go write a hit song.....

Duncan's idea is not to analyse the scale, but to play it. Over anything.

**bako** · 08-09-2016, 01:40 PM

Christian,

My tendency is towards lining up the ducks.
I feel by putting names to the relationships I am engaging with, it strengthens and helps organize my experience.
Of course there are times I hear something that I don't have a contextual sense of and go for it.
On a good day........

I'm not familiar with Duncan. What is the full name?
Does Duncan feel the same about the diminished scale or the major scale, play/don't analyze?

**christianm77** · 08-09-2016, 02:31 PM

Duncan lamont

stworzenie · 08-09-2016, 04:34 PM

Didn't want to copy any pages of Duncan's book, especially as I know the guy, but in any case copying jazz artists books is a bit lame

I am from another world

I started the adventure with music from metal scene but this underground
Unofficial magazines / zines, demos on tapes
All exchanging with friends without the use of the internet
Someone had the demo, recorded on tape, to listen to a band You had to have connections
colleagues who recorded for us something.

It was magical
You have something that was not in any store,just for a group of friends/insiders

I have a completely different approach for copying than most people

Piracy is when we earn money on selling copies
Copying without earning on it is promotion

Like, major-augmented-minor-augmented, etc.

Hm,like that?

Duncan's idea is not to analyse the scale, but to play it. Over anything.

Somewhere Over the Rainbow also?

**StanG** · 08-09-2016, 09:39 PM

Without reading everything: Gary Campbell, Walt Weiskphof, Jerry Bergonzi, and even the Jerry Coker patterns for jazz book, have books that go into this stuff in detail.

There is a 70's Joe Henderson record, maybe Power to the People, where he and Woody Shaw sound like they are using the tritone scale a lot.

But when the big guys use these devices, it doesn't sound outside as much as another means to add and control tension.

I think we've all been there, wanting to play outside. I know I was. Not so much any more. Not saying I can do it, but now I aim to play "in" but use different things when I can. Just playing "outside" sounds like code for aimless noodling.

Playing in is hard enough. To really be able to use and control the devices that take you away from the home harmony and back takes a lot of knowledge and work, particularly at the "speed of jazz."