Playing Outside

[christianm77]

Yeah, it's a cliche to say this, but I think structures are really important. Triads, motifs, pentatonic cells and intervallic things (like the 4th/5th Woody Shaw idea) work well because the ear can hear them, even though they might not be in direct relation to the underlying harmony.

It's a bit like polyrhythms.

George Garzone's teaching has been mentioned elsewhere on the forum and is a good gateway to more outside playing. I know that I tend to use triads when playing outside myself, not that I am a terribly sophisticated outside player.

[Runepune]

Nice, a whole thread on playing out and nobody's given the smug cool-kid answer of "I don't hear any notes as outside" crap.

One thing I always like to try is a Howard Roberts idea--just messing with visual patterns. It really is all about how you get back in...

Indeed.

It's also easier to go outside with faster movements, as the closer collection of notes gives a stronger harmonic/vertical message.

Triads, and pentatonic shapes, are very familiar and harmonic to us humans. They're kinda justified in themselves, even when they are way outside. You'd get by with just about any triad arpeggio, as long as you gracefully get back home

[Boston Joe]

The thing with triads is to not line them up on the beats. You want the strong relationship between the notes, but you don't want it to sound like triad... triad... triad... Rhythmically displacing the first note of each successive triad avoids that.

[kris]

look at Dave Frank video about outside playing....recomended.

[destinytot]

So I'm listening to Kenny Garrett in that clip above, and I'm reminded of listening to the Bach flute partita (which member yaclaus posted about); because movement through key centres 'can' be heard in the lines, as rhythmically strong motifs/patterns.

But behind Kenny Garrett's lines there's a drone - to which those key centres don't belong. Obviously the tension is the whole point.

Perhaps this belongs in the 'jazz as language' thread - under 'irony'! And perhaps 'playing outside' means...taking the p***. (Cue Desolate Shore on The Fast Show's Jazz Club...)

[Boston Joe]

look at Dave Frank video about outside playing....recomended.

This one?

[destinytot]

look at Dave Frank video about outside playing....recomended.

Thanks!

[stworzenie]

look at Dave Frank video about outside playing....recomended.

I know him,thanks


I'm going to try some phrases

Could You show us results? Mp3 or YT video


Duncan Lamont's book 'Streefighter's guide to Improvisation'

I wanted to look into this book online but I can't find it anywhere



PS.Steps Ahead - Magnetic / "Beirut" is amazing,atmosphere of eighties

[wolflen]

I'm interested in exploring this, too.

I rather suspect that elegant outside playing involves the smallest units skillfully woven together.

I really like Woody Shaw, and came across this (for me, trumpet is a better 'horn' for guitarists to emulate):

cool exercise...

I played a variation and it worked nicely...give it a try

play it vertically...that is .. the first four notes in bar One..then the first four notes in bar Four..same for bar Seven & Nine..

note the fingering will change as you get to the higher strings..

follow this pattern on all four note sets

then..mix and match..play as written and mix with the variations...thrown in some melodic patterns before and after a four set..or some of your fave licks..

you can develop some nice lines from this stuff...

[dingusmingus]

Former forumite Jack Zucker made at least four videos on this.

Check his youtube channel for more.

[destinytot]

Former forumite Jack Zucker made at least four videos on this.

Check his youtube channel for more.

Excellent - THANK YOU!

I remember coming across these before, but I wasn't ready. I'm only four minutes into the first one, and I'm actually buying into it this time.

I notice that discussion on this thread seems to have prompted enough analytical listening - yesterday, to Kenny Garrett - to prepare me to really engage with (and, hopefully, absorb) the content, which I think is presented extremely well.

I also notice that I'm pentatonically challenged.

No-one is born ready. Learning is fun.

[destinytot]

Listening to Kenny Garrett and looking up pentatonics, I came across this word: Anhemitonic.

Interesting. I suspect these are the sounds that make for a 'movable feast'; they seem to be a constant throughout the style of outside playing that really 'speaks' to me.

I love the 'tension' of chromatic lines, but - for me - those sounds have nothing like the abiding presence of the pentatonic.

Control of tension - it seems to me - is not only a skill but also a defining characteristic of style. (And it seems to be what prevents playing outside from devolving into what, in the Hollywood adaptation of The Talented Mr Ripley, was memorably described as "insolent noise".)

[stworzenie]

How about this?

[destinytot]

How about this?

Do you mean the guitar solo in particular (@5.25)? Nice! I wouldn't call it outside (though all the 'colours' are there). That's a different bag, but it's totally my cup of tea.

In fact, I find very little 'outside' guitar that I really like (I mean a lot) apart from Benson - and the clip above isn't a million miles from that. Most modern guys play great, but it leaves me cold.

[pkirk]

How about this?

not much "out" in that clip.

There is a 70 year history of playing "out" in a jazz context, and hence a lot of different approaches and a rich history. typically, "what scale" isn't the right kind of question.

I'd love to see a "out" thread in this forum, but I get that with the exception of the kind of temporary
excursion from changes playing (e.g. what Martino) most people don't dig it, and often the discussion degenerates into "this is BS."

Here are a couple I've been listening to recently. The ornette recording is incredible I've owned the vinyl for about 35 years but just recently really started to enjoy it as much as his other stuff.

Tim Berne composes the most challenging and intricate stuff around, but the vibe is definitely "out"

[Boston Joe]

Former forumite Jack Zucker made at least four videos on this.

Check his youtube channel for more.

*SOB* He's got the PRS model I had and was stolen.

[christianm77]

If you play outside all the time then there would be no inside. Serial music for example makes outside it's inside and inside into the outside - having consonant intervals and chords sounds 'wrong' in the style.

(Interestingly, scientific research shows that a preference for consonance over dissonance is in fact cultural. Arnie was right all along.)

Anyway - Western harmonic music flirts with 'outside notes' to create movement. Just listen to Mozart's use of chromaticism in his melodies over simple chords.

Much consider consonant playing jazz would be considered outside from the perspective of earlier musical culture - take those unresolved major 7ths common in jazz tunes and improvisations since the early days. I mean I'm talking about the Hot Fives and Sevens here.

A classic example of outside that's part of the basic language of our music would be playing a b3 and a b5 over a major. Blues, right? If you chain several outside notes into some sort of structure - say a C blues scale or a C dim 7 arpeggio over a major chord, you might have two or three notes that 'jarr' before they resolve to the chord.

To me, playing a ii-V-I is basically a move from outside --> inside. The altered scale, for example is a common choice because it contains almost every chromatic note in the key with the exception of a couple of notes that can be found using different substitutions. The altered scale on V also contains the most outside diatonic note - the natural 4th of the key.

The video I posted elsewhere is basically a way of looking at ii-V-I's from the point of view of taking a ii or IV chord, making it outside and then resolving it. That was a very simple approach, but the possibilities are limited only by your imagination.

In fact, while intellectually I know this stuff exists 'out there' I have yet to explore it, in part because I have been very concerned with learning the language and tradition of jazz. This may be about to change....

So, melodically, every note is up for grabs and these can be systematised into any structure you like, especially if the simple rule of thumb of resolution by a half step either in the meldoic line or in the voice leading described by the line is honoured. Here are some common tropes:

- Garzone's triads with that rhythmic displacement
- Planing up and down a semitone (B on a Bb rhythm changes for example.)
- Playing giant steps changes on a static key centre

Some might prefer to use harmonic substitutions to arrive at this, but really, you can do whatever you want provided you know where you are going and when.

[christianm77]

One way of looking at the altered scale:

Inside (Lydian) - (bearing in mind two octave harmonic blending)
1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

Everything Else (which forms an anhemitonic scale, yo. bVII minor pentatonic/bII major pentatonic)
b2 b3 4 b6 b7

Altered scale = V shell voicing (5 7 4) + Everything else:

5 b6 b7 7 b2 b3 4

But we can do whatever else we like with everything else, really. We are free to mix it up with whatever we like.

What about minor?:

Inside (Dorian)
1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

Everything else (forms a minor pentatonic on bII - a very common use when 'planing' over a minor vamp.)
b2 3 b5 b6 7

Anyway I thought that was quite interesting. By using a major pent a half step up in a major key, or a minor pent a half step up in a minor key, you are basically hitting all the 'outside' notes in one go.

[destinytot]

*SOB* He's got the PRS model I had and was stolen.

That's awful. That kind of violation's no joke.

[Groyniad]

When you play outside in the UK, always ensure you have a circuit breaker on your plug board. Rain + electricity = bad news.

my only reason for opening this thread was to make this joke - you got there first damn you

wear a sweater and use a cheap guitar

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

!!

[Boston Joe]

That's awful. That kind of violation's no joke.

It was a big part of the reason I sold my house and got out of that neighborhood. It was the second time my house had been broken into. They got all my guitars, my amp, my keyboard, my personal laptop, and my work laptop. For some reason, they didn't take my bass.

[stworzenie]

I do not know you noticed this out
but each key has its own "out pentatonic"

For example C major (c,d,e,f,g,a,b)
out pentatonic (c#,d#,f#,g#,a#)


For some reason, they didn't take my bass.
stealing bass is a sin fear of the abyss/a bass

I wouldn't call it outside (though all the 'colours' are there). That's a different bag

Hmmm...


Kids Playing Outside

[stworzenie]

[stworzenie]