How was Joe Pass able to play so good without knowing much theory?

[lammie200]

...but he never hooks his thumb over...Almost all self-taught guitarist hook the LH thumb, ...

I have never been able to hook my left thumb over. I also can't finger every chord imaginable, but there are still plenty available for me. Also mostly self taught, btw. I think that it is more of a physical limitation.

Theory is descriptive, not prescriptive. I'm thinking that even if he didn't know a b5b9b11's name -- perhaps he did, perhaps he didn't -- he damned well knew what it sounded like in a progression, and made use of that knowledge...

In one of his instructional videos he says that he simplifies his thinking about chords by separating them into three groups - major, minor and dominant - and doesn't bother analyzing them in depth. Easier to keep your mind uncluttered with that approach IMHO.

How did Joe Pass play so good despite never spending hours debating stuff on internet forums? ;-)

He spent time in and out of jail. I imagine that those experiences affecting him in ways that those of us that haven't couldn't fathom to understand. Probably a vacuous experience that cleared his head enough to let him concentrate, but that is just a guess of course.

[AlsoRan]

So you folks are saying theory is basically reverse-engineering, right?

[lammie200]

So you folks are saying theory is basically reverse-engineering, right?

I think that I would reiterate what was said before. There is a difference between understanding theory and applying theory. I would think that would be the same in all fields, not just music.

[NoReply]

So you folks are saying theory is basically reverse-engineering, right?

If theory had to come first nothing would of be created. People make discoveries then others document and formalize it to pass it on.

[matt.guitarteacher]

So you folks are saying theory is basically reverse-engineering, right?

It's more than that, but at the most basic levels it's things like terminology and vocabulary for things we do in music. It's more convenient to talk about C or C minor than to talk about "sad C" or "happy white notes". :-) You can describe things verbally which you would otherwise have to play , just so people know what you're talking about.

[NoReply]

It's more than that, but at the most basic levels it's things like terminology and vocabulary for things we do in music. It's more convenient to talk about C or C minor than to talk about "sad C" or "happy white notes". :-) You can describe things verbally which you would otherwise have to play , just so people know what you're talking about.

Hey let's keep race out of this.

[TH]

Hey let's keep race out of this.

Yeah! Who cares if I'm always in last place?
David

[Jabberwocky]

What's wrong with just calling them white notes gay? Yeah, gay white notes make gay noises. How about that?

[NoReply]

What's wrong with just calling them white notes gay? Yeah, gay white notes make gay noises. How about that?

Good that leaves me with the Black Keys and they make a pentatonic scale so I can play all the hits.

[Cunamara]

Mark, "cohesiveness" is such a great term to describe Joe's playing and that of all the greats. For all that Joe tended to play off the top of his head, he knew who he was and what he wanted to express. Everything you heard from him was Joe Pass.

[Jabberwocky]

Joe Pass Guitar Chords is the book that is a window into Joe's mind. Simple book. If one takes the time to work through it (and all the keys) one gains a working vocabulary of chord voicings that will see you through any song.

The greatest of players have the simplest of thoughts. Joe Pass didn't intone from on high with some high-falutin high-sounding stuff. Joe's advice was simple: get a good working vocabulary of voicings under your fingers. And develop your ear. The rest is just hard graft playing through the changes. When you have played Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, something happens. But to the guy who hasn't heard Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, that is some good shit that you're playing.

You know what is required reading for jazz guitarists? Strunk & White, The Elements of Style. In good writing, one doesn't require a large vocabulary; one has to know how to use simple words well. A ham writes "it assails the olfactory senses". A writer writes "it stinks".

Not to diss theory but it is a good intellectual wank, in the best sense of wanking. A diditmeself satisfaction. One lives by living; if I had to study existentialism first I would never get around to the business of living.

Joe Pass played by playing tunes. Good working vocabulary of voicings. Knowing where the notes. Developing your ear for good old unfashionable melodicism.

This is what happens when you are Joe Pass:

The 8 Dislikes probably come from the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts.

It is a broad church. Nothing against the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts. When it serves music you are Pat Martino. When it doesn't serve music it becomes like anyone of the noodlers on Youtube.

But like modern art, concept is everything. Piss Christ, anyone?

[Jabberwocky]

Joe Pass Guitar Chords is the book that is a window into Joe's mind. Simple book. If one takes the time to work through it (and all the keys) one gains a working vocabulary of chord voicings that will see you through any song.

The greatest of players have the simplest of thoughts. Joe Pass didn't intone from on high with some high-falutin high-sounding stuff. Joe's advice was simple: get a good working vocabulary of voicings under your fingers. And develop your ear. The rest is just hard graft playing through the changes. When you have played Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, something happens. But to the guy who hasn't heard Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, that is some good shit that you're playing.

You know what is required reading for jazz guitarists? Strunk & White, The Elements of Style. In good writing, one doesn't require a large vocabulary; one has to know how to use simple words well. A ham writes "it assails the olfactory senses". A writer writes "it stinks".

Not to diss theory but it is a good intellectual wank, in the best sense of wanking. A diditmeself satisfaction. One lives by living; if I had to study existentialism first I would never get around to the business of living.

Joe Pass played by playing tunes. Good working vocabulary of voicings. Knowing where the notes are under the fingers. Developing your ear for good old unfashionable melodicism.

This is what happens when you are Joe Pass:

The 8 Dislikes probably come from the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts.

It is a broad church. Nothing against the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts. When it serves music you are Pat Martino. When it doesn't serve music one becomes like any one of the noodlers on Youtube.

But like modern art, concept is everything. Piss Christ, anyone?

[destinytot]

Joe Pass Guitar Chords is the book that is a window into Joe's mind. Simple book. If one takes the time to work through it (and all the keys) one gains a working vocabulary of chord voicings that will see you through any song.

The greatest of players have the simplest of thoughts. Joe Pass didn't intone from on high with some high-falutin high-sounding stuff. Joe's advice was simple: get a good working vocabulary of voicings under your fingers. And develop your ear. The rest is just hard graft playing through the changes. When you have played Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, something happens. But to the guy who hasn't heard Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, that is some good shit that you're playing.

You know what is required reading for jazz guitarists? Strunk & White, The Elements of Style. In good writing, one doesn't require a large vocabulary; one has to know how to use simple words well. A ham writes "it assails the olfactory senses". A writer writes "it stinks".

Not to diss theory but it is a good intellectual wank, in the best sense of wanking. A diditmeself satisfaction. One lives by living; if I had to study existentialism first I would never get around to the business of living.

Joe Pass played by playing tunes. Good working vocabulary of voicings. Knowing where the notes. Developing your ear for good old unfashionable melodicism.

This is what happens when you are Joe Pass:

Love to hear him talk, too.

[Jabberwocky]

Love to hear him talk, too.

I heard Joe Pass at The Blackstone in Chicago, shortly before he passed on. He had the same ineffable sense of humour that one sees in that video. Joe was just so natural. Nothing was forced. His humour. His playing. He played as he lived. From the anecdotes I have read there isn't a mean bone in him. We can all take a lesson from that.

"I don't know how much you all paid to hear me. But for your money, I sure play a lot of notes."

[christianm77]

How did Joe Pass manage to play so good without the aid of true bypass pedals?

[christianm77]

Joe Pass Guitar Chords is the book that is a window into Joe's mind. Simple book. If one takes the time to work through it (and all the keys) one gains a working vocabulary of chord voicings that will see you through any song.

The greatest of players have the simplest of thoughts. Joe Pass didn't intone from on high with some high-falutin high-sounding stuff. Joe's advice was simple: get a good working vocabulary of voicings under your fingers. And develop your ear. The rest is just hard graft playing through the changes. When you have played Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, something happens. But to the guy who hasn't heard Autumn Leaves hundreds of times, that is some good shit that you're playing.

You know what is required reading for jazz guitarists? Strunk & White, The Elements of Style. In good writing, one doesn't require a large vocabulary; one has to know how to use simple words well. A ham writes "it assails the olfactory senses". A writer writes "it stinks".

Not to diss theory but it is a good intellectual wank, in the best sense of wanking. A diditmeself satisfaction. One lives by living; if I had to study existentialism first I would never get around to the business of living.

Joe Pass played by playing tunes. Good working vocabulary of voicings. Knowing where the notes are under the fingers. Developing your ear for good old unfashionable melodicism.

This is what happens when you are Joe Pass:

The 8 Dislikes probably come from the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts.

It is a broad church. Nothing against the School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts. When it serves music you are Pat Martino. When it doesn't serve music one becomes like any one of the noodlers on Youtube.

But like modern art, concept is everything. Piss Christ, anyone?

I dunno, I see Pat's core soloing concept as essentially very simple and practical - turn everything into a minor chord so that you can apply your vocabulary as everywhere, and take advantage of minor third symmetry. What he does with it is not, obv...

School of Advanced Harmonic Concepts - well that's a music college dumping a big heap of concepts on you over the space of three years. TBF they don't expect all of it to stick. The sensible players take what they need. People who think you have to learn *everything* get stuck IMO. You can't, not enough time in a human lifespan.

'I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.'

[destinytot]

I heard Joe Pass at The Blackstone in Chicago, shortly before he passed on. He had the same ineffable sense of humour that one sees in that video. Joe was just so natural. Nothing was forced. His humour. His playing. He played as he lived. From the anecdotes I have read there isn't a mean bone in him. We can all take a lesson from that.

"I don't know how much you all paid to hear me. But for your money, I sure play a lot of notes."

Sean Levitt told me that Joe Pass had encouraged him. I'll always remember the context of that conversation - self-doubt and envy.

I like the image of pain and suffering in life as two arrows; the first unavoidable, the second a choice - in the (archaic?) sense of 'suffer' as 'tolerate' or 'permit'.

I think that second arrow is chronic (self-) sabotage. Joe Pass must have paid some serious dues, and it seems to me that he survived the second arrow.

[Cunamara]

Joe paid serious dues. As a kid he spent hours a day practicing at the behest of his father and did not get to do a lot of normal kid things, at least from what he said in various interviews. He was gigging in his early teenage years. He got hooked on heroin for what, about 15 years, and then spent time in prison. Joe turned up on the doorstep of Synanon with everything he owned in the world, basically his clothes and- for some reason- a sack of onions. But through Synanon he got his head straightened out, got back into music performance, was gifted his ES-175 and climbed into the jazz world. But even that, being what it is economically, was still paying dues till the end of his days. And yet he never seemed bitter, seemed gracious with his fans, appreciated that people enjoyed what he played, earned the deep respect of his peers.

[lawson-stone]

Joe paid serious dues. As a kid he spent hours a day practicing at the behest of his father and did not get to do a lot of normal kid things, at least from what he said in various interviews. He was gigging in his early teenage years. He got hooked on heroin for what, about 15 years, and then spent time in prison. Joe turned up on the doorstep of Synanon with everything he owned in the world, basically his clothes and- for some reason- a sack of onions. But through Synanon he got his head straightened out, got back into music performance, was gifted his ES-175 and climbed into the jazz world. But even that, being what it is economically, was still paying dues till the end of his days. And yet he never seemed bitter, seemed gracious with his fans, appreciated that people enjoyed what he played, earned the deep respect of his peers.

Also... little mentioned... wasn't Joe Pass in the Marines for a while?

Marines?

[NoReply]

Also... little mentioned... wasn't Joe Pass in the Marines for a while?

Marines?

I don't think so never heard it mentioned. Look at his timeline from kid playing, leaving home to play with bands, goes to NYC, stops playing then goes back because that is all he knew how to do. Gets strung out for over a decade and heads out West and stops playing again. Then goes to Synanon for a couple years and they get him to start playing again as part of his therapy and rest is the history most are familiar with.

What I've read in the early days he wasn't that fond of playing guitar, but it became his way to afford to leave home and get from under his fathers thumb. He got tired of playing again and touring and goes to NYC to see if something else he could do, again guitar became his way to make money. When his health was suffering he quit again, but luckily found help at Synanon. So he had a strange relationship with guitar.

[targuit]

I think Joe would consider that period of his heroin addiction to be a negative time in his life. But with the help of Syanon and who knows what else he overcame his addiction to become a historical figure in the pantheon of jazz guitarists. Not bad for a kid from PA if I recall.

I'd like to hear more from anyone who interacted with Joe to know a more first hand idea of who he was. Inquiring minds...

[lawson-stone]

I knew it. I saw in his obituary in the New York Times.

Joe Pass, 65, a Jazz Guitarist Who Performed With the Stars - NYTimes.com

[lawson-stone]

Here's another obit that mentions the Marine corps.

Seriously... I keep trying to imagine Joe Pass in the marine corps.

My brain explodes.

Obituary: Joe Pass | People | News | The Independent

[NoReply]

I knew it. I saw in his obituary in the New York Times.

Joe Pass, 65, a Jazz Guitarist Who Performed With the Stars - NYTimes.com

Hard to imagine him in the Marines and per the obit he was only in for one year so that means something happened for them to part ways.

[edh]

I wonder if he was booted out of Marines?