#11 vs b5

[christianm77]

For history buffs, this tune is a nice example of the bVI7#11 (a very popular colour in 20's/30's music in general) and how it was handled in this music (there are loads of other examples.)

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You'll notice that the lydian tetrachord (1 2 3 #4) is used very prominently over the bVI7 chord. This sound could allude to either the whole tone scale or what we understand to be the Lydian Dominant. It's not really clear. The whole tone/lydian influenced tetrachord is a teasing element in a longer melody made of steps and thirds.

In the tune Out of Nowhere has Bb A G over the Eb7 chord - this is 5 #11 3. So that seems pretty Lydian Dominant.

So my question is, given we have some strong examples of what we would think of as Lydian Dominant sounds in jazz going right back into the early days, how were these composers thinking?

A huge influence on the composers of this time was Debussy, perhaps Nate might have some ideas about this.

I wonder if a lot of it wasn't down to path of least resistance - Ab7#11 has the notes Ab C D Gb, in the key of C that's two flats, which would give us this:

Ab B C D E F Gb

Which is basically a whole tone scale with an extra note if we flat the B as like the composer of I'll Never Be the Same, and lose the F:

Ab Bb C D E Gb

(In fact if we look at this chord as an aug6th we would write the Gb as a F#...) In contrast a Lydian Dominant mode has more chromatics.

Ab Bb C D Eb F Gb

I would suggest that the whole tone scale might be the default choice for musicians of this period working over a bVI7#11 chord - but the lydian dominant is also a pretty clear alteration of the scale too, it also includes a nice bluesy Eb too. In practice the whole scale rarely gets expressed so it's a bit of a moot point.

Anyway it's all a bit of a side issue, but I do feel it points up the way melodic considerations have been subsumed into vertical thinking in jazz harmony. We are so bound to this paradigm it's hard to see beyond it. But there are other paradigms.

Classical musicians would call these chords French Sixths, and its likely that the classical trained composers of these old song may have thought of them this way.

[christianm77]

Sometimes it feels that we (including me) approach this all backwards. We study how to imply harmony via scales, arpeggios and voicings and then wonder how to make it more musical.

I suspect the line of evolution in jazz started with rhythmic and melodic freedom and gradually incorporated more complex linear interweaving into the harmony.

Naturally, it's not that simple. Django for example does a lot of changes playing. Other musicians improvised more on the melody.

The main thing that changed was the rhythmic concept and the phrasing which necessitated perhaps a more continuous running eighth style of soloing, but bop did not innovate this any more than it innovated so called bebop scales, tritone substitutes, use of upper extensions or anything else, all of which can clearly be heard on earlier records by different players.

It's more - I think - that Bird synthesised elements of Coleman Hawkins & Art Tatum (heavy changes playing, adventurous use of harmonic colour) and Lester Young (blues, rhythmic invention and legato) plus his own quite unique rhythmic alchemy - and his playing became what we call 'bebop' and the template for everything else.

To my ears the move from 1920s-1960s say is a move towards increased rhythmic freedom, it's hard to spot trends beyond that. Both early and free jazz have an element of melodic freedom not found in much bop, but Bird to me has this quality too. The main thing that change IMO is the rhythm section organisation, instrumentation of the drumset and the phrasing in the melodies, and in general that was a push towards greater openness and freedom here as the music moved away from its dance roots.

[guitarbard]

Thanks, JonR,

All that's fairly clear. I'm having fun with a looper, and seeing what sounds good,,and not,,etc. Wish I still had that bass. My ear is often the best arbiter.

[JonR]

Thank you. These chords are all present in Romantic era harmony. It does my head in that people talk about chords in functional harmony as coming from this or that melodic minor scale. It's the other way around. Where do the chords come from?

'The Harmony is Classical' Barry Harris

Anyway I agree with you. IMO more people should check out classical harmony, it makes a lot of sense with respect to standards changes etc, I found it really helpful.

Thanks. I should say my study of classical theory is very patchy, and my knowledge of classical music even sketchier. I take your word on the use of such chords in the Romantic era. I just use my common sense when looking at jazz progressions. The simplest answer - that connects most directly with the music - is usually the best.

In general bop era stuff is pretty common practice - by which I mean classical. Secondary dominants are handled elegantly with minimal alterations to the prevailing key, borrowed minor chords such as bVII7 (backdoor dominants) are used for colour ala Brahms etc. The important thing AFAIK for the bop era guys was being able to run a line smoothly through the changes, and developing rhythmic and melodic freedom through them.

Absolutely.
I think they probably benefited from the absence of jazz pedagogy! There was no "jazz theory" in those days. There was classical theory, and there was popular music. And there was the jazz tradition of improvisation.
And for teaching, there was the apprenticeship system, where young players learned from mentors in a band context.

Naturally, later jazz became involved in more advanced concepts - although some "modal" practices were based loosely (appropriately enough) on post-Romantic "impressionism" (Debussy, Ravel, Satie etc), other ideas came from George Russell, not to mention the imagination of folk like Miles and Coltrane. That's where "jazz theory" and academic jazz teaching began to develop.
That's as I see it anyhow. Personally I think myself lucky I didn't have any teachers when I was learning to play - other than records of course, and songbooks (and fellow band members). It enabled me to take jazz teaching - when I finally signed up for some - lightly enough, using what made sense and rejecting what seemed too abstract.