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A hot jazz piano player I know says he only uses 3 scales, diatonic, melodic minor, and diminished blues scales. What does he mean by "Diminished Blues"? How is that different to a diminished scale?
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06-08-2009 11:46 PM
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Diminished blues scale, eh? Could it be just a personal name for the blues scale with a b9 (b2) added?
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Do you have a name for the scale you mention?
Originally Posted by franco6719
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From henceforward I hereby proclaim the scale "1, b2, ,b3, 4, b5, 5, b7", the DIMINISHED BLUES scale. (;
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Finally asked him, it's just the half/whole dim scale.
But didn't ask him how/why it's called the diminished blues scale....
The blues scale with the b2 is kinda interesting, where can you use it (apart from blues)?
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He may call it that since that scale is used alot on the IV chord in a blues especially when the pattern is I - IV- I - I like Billies Bounce Originally Posted by princeplanet
Finally asked him, it's just the half/whole dim scale. But didn't ask him how/why it's called the diminished blues scale....
The blues scale with the b2 is kinda interesting, where can you use it (apart from blues)?
Also that blues scale b2 would also work against a major 7 if you thought of the b2 as the root of the maj7 chord.
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I call that one the Auxilary Diminished scale. It sounds great on many altered dominants especially C7b913. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Finally asked him, it's just the half/whole dim scale. But didn't ask him how/why it's called the diminished blues scale....
The blues scale with the b2 is kinda interesting, where can you use it (apart from blues)?
1 - b2- #2- 3 -#4 - 5- 6- b7
its just slightly different from the "altered
scale" which has a #5 and no 6, and is usually prefered on an altered Dom. (C7#9#5)
to play an Altered scale with ease, go up a halfstep and play melodic minor, altered scale is the 7th mode.Last edited by timscarey; 06-10-2009 at 09:36 PM.
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I wonder how many players prefer either the alt or the dim scale, would you get away with preferring just one?
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there is no ONE right answer but... Originally Posted by princeplanet
Look at the scale degrees and how they relate to the chord symbol.
If a dominant chord has an altered 9 but NOT an altered 5th, the aux-dim scale would be very appropriate.
If the Dom chord has an altered 9 AND and altered 5th (or just a #5 and no mention of a 9th in the symbol) Altered scale would seem to fit better.
For natural 9 and altered 5 we have "Mixo b6"
and "Lydian Dominant" and "whole tone scale"
and last but not least.. the one I heard of once and can never seem to use...
"Modified Aux-Dim Scale"
1 -b2 - #2 - 3 - #4 - #5 - 6 - b7
to be used over.. well... a lot of dominant chords.
these scales can all be used over major triads and power chords as well.Last edited by timscarey; 06-11-2009 at 12:12 AM.
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^^ and, both the altered and diminished scales work with a dom7b5
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"also that blues scale b2 would also work against a major 7 if you thought of the b2 as the root of the maj7 chord."
There's an interesting idea to play around with.
Most of these scales have more than one name to such an extent that it often causes confusion to think in those terms. That's why I was saying, only partly joking, that you might as well baptize the damned thing yourself and call it whatever you like. I will just call it blues with flat 2, since that's the easiest to visualize and remember.
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Originally Posted by franco6719
I agree. What's in a name? I prefer to think in sounds and functions. I read somewhere that there is really only one scale. The chromatic scale. It's up to the player to decide what to use and what to leave out.
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I see your point, but I would argue that naming things in music has an extremely valuable application. Not just so the things can be taught in an organized way, but also for quick communication with other musicians, and quick recall during an improvisation. Having a semantic representation of a sound is the basis of music theory. Indian musicians have very specific names for all of their Raga's. African musicians have names for all of their rhythms. I am going to argue on the side of naming scales and memorizing them, mostly because that is what most of my teachers have taught me and it has served me well thus far as both a player and educator. Yay jazz guitar forum! Originally Posted by JohnW400
I agree. What's in a name? I prefer to think in sounds and functions. I read somewhere that there is really only one scale. The chromatic scale. It's up to the player to decide what to use and what to leave out.
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As someone trying to appropriate all this stuff, I'm with Tim on this one. It seems to help, at least in early learning stages, to have a "mnemonic" to bring these newly formed concepts to mind. I suppose after a while you lose the need for them.....
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It's suppose it's not that there shouldn't be names and categories. It's just that there are often so many names for one scale, for example, that one should go with whatever is the simplest to remember personally. Then, if the need comes up, you can just explain what you are talking about to other players, as we are doing here. If you need to teach, you should probably go with the standard names if possible.
The best thing is to get to the point that you know the structures though. Superlocrian? I'm not going to think of superlocrian. Originally, the name scared that heck out of me in fact. I don't even "think of it" (versus talking about it) as altered dominant scale. For me, of I have to think of it at all, it's just Melodic minor up a half-step. And that is just the major scale b3.Last edited by franco6719; 06-12-2009 at 05:47 AM.
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It's probably easir to break it down into function. I honestly don't think in names. Let's look at it like this:
Scales:
possible number of notes:
5/6/7/8/9/10/11/12
Sound type:
Major
minor
dominant
mi7b5
diminished
augmented
altered
Now using the modes from the major scale systems as a guide, think of these as the starting place
Major types:
Major, Lydian
Minor Types:
Dorian Phrygian Aeolian
Dominant types
Mixolydian, Locrian * (thinking root = 3rd of the chord)
1/2 dim type:
Locrian
Now evertime you alter one note in any of these scales , use that parent and the alteration in the name.
D E F G# A B C D = Dorian #4
F G A B C D Eb = Lydian b7 (but of course this one comes from the jazz melodic minor)
The idea though is to recognize the alterations rather than the names.
Technically you could think of the jazz melodic minor as the Ionian mode with a flat third. This makes the first mode in that scale a dorian with a b2
Of course the opposite is also true as you remove notes for 6 and 5 note scales
Ex. A B C E F# G# could be thought of as a melodic minor w/o the 4th (or it's an AmiMa7 th and 13th)
I really feel that as far as improvising , this is the better route.
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I love this thread. I have to say, I'm so glad I found this website and can chat about theory with other like-minded people.
Anyway, this is how I learned it, but I like John's point of veiw as well as Franco's, in fact, at this point, after practicing these things so much. I really don't think in scales anymore either....
Melodic minor System (to me memorized and practiced as a diatonic system would be)
1.Melodic minor
2.Phrygidorian (I know huh?)
3.Lydian Augmented
4.Lydian Dominant
5.Mixolydian b6
6.Superlocrian
7.Altered Scale
I do agree with the statement that really there is one scale, the chromatic scale, but I couldn't imagine trying to get through some of the tougher Wayne Shorter tunes without having studied Melodic Minor.
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Originally Posted by timscarey
Phryidorian - sounds likes a girl I once dated years ago
or repairman that specializes in kitchen appliances 
And I concur about Wayne Shorter. You MUST be fluent in the jazz melodic minor for his stuff
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