Lydian Chromatic Concept explained simply

[vintagelove]

Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it. Enjoy!!! .....p.s. the mode formula begins on b7 of dom, = means easy way to think of those notes. P.p.s notice the last four modes include the 4th.


Mode 1 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
=mixolydian starting on the root of dom7.... basically major scale




2 Lydian aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
=lydian dom off root of V,
adds #4 sound to dom 7




3(very similar to 6) Lyd Dim1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
=hw dim off root dom. no #9



4 Lydian dom 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (note NOT REGULAR LYD DOM)
=lyd dom off b7 of dom
=1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 from root
Cm/G top… im/bottom V.... Or MM of the I chord




5 aux aug(wt)1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
= wt scale off root (or b7) of dom7




6 hw aux dim 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
=hw dim off root of dom




7 aux dim blues
= hw dim off b7 of dom




8 Major f g a Bb c d e
b7 1 2 #9 11 5 13
Like playing mixolydian off I chord



9 Mixolydian f g a Bb c d eb
b7 1 2 #9 11 5 b13
Like playing Dorian off I chord




10 Maj aug 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
f g a Bb c C# D E
b7 1 2 #9 11#11 513
Like playing mixolydian with an added #1 of I chord



11 African Amercian Blues 1 2 b334b55 6 b7
f g Ab A Bb B C D Eb
b7 1 b9 9 #9 3 11 5 b13
Like Min i chordscale (c d eb f g) from G chromatic back up to C

[pingu]

oh this is the simple version !
thanks man

[Robertkoa]

Aha!
So you are one of the 14.7 People who actually understand that book !

As a Rock / R&B Player looking to expand I once read a bit of it.

But I was looking at Theory Books for Harmony and Modulations etc.

It was slightly over my head- like the next floor up...lol.

I am currently using Parent Keys for Modes
of course so G Ionian ( all the structures in G major not just a 7 note scale) is the Parent Key for A Dorian - I use that all the time and now I am doing a thing with Pentatonics and Transposed Pentatonics ( the scale that sounds less like a scale) that can gradually go more and more outside and digesting them and getting under my fingers ( then I will chromaticize them and stick arpeggiated triads in them etc. )
And the Jazz Guys use a shortcut on Altered Dominants the b3 Minor Pentatonic
which is enharmonic to the #4 Major Pentatonic which is all the Tones NOT in the Parent Major Key...so I am trying to catalog these and get them under my Fingers and into my mind etc.

So the reason I am converting to Pentatonics is it seems like a great way to go from Totally Inside ( ALL Chord Tones)
to Totally Outside ( No Chord Tones)
and many points in between..
7 Note Scales do not do this as Precisely - you could say...do you agree ?

1)Why did the Author ( is it George Russell ?)
use Lydian as the Parent Key ?

2)I notice they are all started on a* Chord Tone like the b7 of a Dominant - the common Mode would be Mixolydian or basically playing in the IV Major Parent Key-
right?
So he uses Lydian and starts it on the b7- is that it for one example ?

And it just creates some cool and unusual Tensions depending on where it's started on the chord you are playing over ?

Also since every 7 Note Parent Key or Mode
contains the I IV and V Pentatonic scales ( and their Relative Minors) can these Lydian Parent Scales be enharmonically converted to Lydian Pentatonics in a similar way to what I am doing with Dorian and Mixolydian Parent Pentatonics now ?

I know they can be converted but since they are 5 Notes will it be more useful and sound less like a " scale" and be less critical for the starting notes ?

Plus ...if it sounds good..

The Lydian Chromatic Pentatonic Concept- now that's a really catchy Title...

I know I am going to have to read the answer to this at least three times to get it...lol.

* Playing Devil's Advocate here- when you
"frame" any motif or short phrase from chord tone to another chord tone - and do it Rhythmically - you can get away with almost anything outside especially if you play it fast...and make it work..right?

[nick1994]

the LCC is hierarchical approach to chromaticism. that's the point of the LCC.

[christianm77]

I was rather reminded of a line or two of Byron:

'And Coleridge, too, has lately taken wing,
But like a hawk encumber'd with his hood,
Explaining Metaphysics to the nation—
I wish he would explain his Explanation.'

But actually this is very nicely distilled. Of course, the question is, what do with these scales?

[rquattro]

Thanks for this! I understand them all except #4? How -where do I start-use this scale?
Thanks,
Rob

[vintagelove]

Thanks for this! I understand them all except #4? How -where do I start-use this scale?
Thanks,
Rob

Hello, for number 4, if you already have fingerings for traditional lydian dom, play them off the b7 of the dominant.

if you don't, you can think about it as a new scale starting from the root of the Dom, 1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7


Cool sounds in that one.... Good luck!!!

[vintagelove]

I was rather reminded of a line or two of Byron:

'And Coleridge, too, has lately taken wing,
But like a hawk encumber'd with his hood,
Explaining Metaphysics to the nation—
I wish he would explain his Explanation.'

But actually this is very nicely distilled. Of course, the question is, what do with these scales?

Just like any other scale, they are each a box of crayons filled with colors to draw a picture with.


The possibilities are only limited by your imagination.

[vintagelove]

Aha!
So you are one of the 14.7 People who actually understand that book !

As a Rock / R&B Player looking to expand I once read a bit of it.

But I was looking at Theory Books for Harmony and Modulations etc.

It was slightly over my head- like the next floor up...lol.

I am currently using Parent Keys for Modes
of course so G Ionian ( all the structures in G major not just a 7 note scale) is the Parent Key for A Dorian - I use that all the time and now I am doing a thing with Pentatonics and Transposed Pentatonics ( the scale that sounds less like a scale) that can gradually go more and more outside and digesting them and getting under my fingers ( then I will chromaticize them and stick arpeggiated triads in them etc. )
And the Jazz Guys use a shortcut on Altered Dominants the b3 Minor Pentatonic
which is enharmonic to the #4 Major Pentatonic which is all the Tones NOT in the Parent Major Key...so I am trying to catalog these and get them under my Fingers and into my mind etc.

So the reason I am converting to Pentatonics is it seems like a great way to go from Totally Inside ( ALL Chord Tones)
to Totally Outside ( No Chord Tones)
and many points in between..
7 Note Scales do not do this as Precisely - you could say...do you agree ?

1)Why did the Author ( is it George Russell ?)
use Lydian as the Parent Key ?

2)I notice they are all started on a* Chord Tone like the b7 of a Dominant - the common Mode would be Mixolydian or basically playing in the IV Major Parent Key-
right?
So he uses Lydian and starts it on the b7- is that it for one example ?

And it just creates some cool and unusual Tensions depending on where it's started on the chord you are playing over ?

Also since every 7 Note Parent Key or Mode
contains the I IV and V Pentatonic scales ( and their Relative Minors) can these Lydian Parent Scales be enharmonically converted to Lydian Pentatonics in a similar way to what I am doing with Dorian and Mixolydian Parent Pentatonics now ?

I know they can be converted but since they are 5 Notes will it be more useful and sound less like a " scale" and be less critical for the starting notes ?

Plus ...if it sounds good..

The Lydian Chromatic Pentatonic Concept- now that's a really catchy Title...

I know I am going to have to read the answer to this at least three times to get it...lol.

* Playing Devil's Advocate here- when you
"frame" any motif or short phrase from chord tone to another chord tone - and do it Rhythmically - you can get away with almost anything outside especially if you play it fast...and make it work..right?

There is a lot to answer here, I'll do my best without rewriting his book


1) He considered lydian more consonant than a major scale, also mathematics... That justifies what he heard..... That being said, notice mode 1 is the equivalent of using the major scale.

2) reread exactly what I wrote, all formula start on b7 of the dominant chord, and will work over both the ii and V.... The = is a convenient or traditional way to think of the scale.

3) I use pentatonic subs all the time. Do the math, get them in your ear, shed them, lots of amazing sounds with ingrained fingerings.

devils advocate, sure, but that's like saying painting a masterpiece is just drawing some shapes, but if you have a good eye and some colors, you'll be fine...

Again this is just a cheat sheet for using a bunch of new colors without reading 300 pages. If you dig the sounds, check out the book (or pm me about some lessons). Whether or not someone should drop their conventional theory and go full on LCC, like I said in another thread, I would need to see the great classical works analyzed using LCC. Until then it's just another giant set of possibilities.

[rquattro]

I see so using #4 would be like C melodic minor over G7?
Thanks again for posting.

Rob

[vintagelove]

I see so using #4 would be like C melodic minor over G7?
Thanks again for posting.

Rob

Yes nice catch, I'll add that to the op.

[rquattro]

Ok thanks again.Lots of great sounds....

[princeplanet]

Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it. Enjoy!!! .....p.s. the mode formula begins on b7 of dom, = means easy way to think of those notes. P.p.s notice the last four modes include the 4th.


Mode 1 Lydian 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7
=mixolydian starting on the root of dom7.... basically major scale




2 Lydian aug 1 2 3 #4 #5 6 7
=lydian dom off root of V,
adds #4 sound to dom 7




3(very similar to 6) Lyd Dim1 2 b3 #4 5 6 7
=hw dim off root dom. no #9



4 Lydian dom 1 2 3 #4 5 6 b7 (note NOT REGULAR LYD DOM)
=lyd dom off b7 of dom
=1 2 3 4 5 b6 b7 from root
Cm/G top… im/bottom V.... Or MM of the I chord




5 aux aug(wt)1 2 3 #4 #5 b7
= wt scale off root (or b7) of dom7




6 hw aux dim 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 6 7
=hw dim off root of dom




7 aux dim blues
= hw dim off b7 of dom




8 Major f g a Bb c d e
b7 1 2 #9 11 5 13
Like playing mixolydian off I chord



9 Mixolydian f g a Bb c d eb
b7 1 2 #9 11 5 b13
Like playing Dorian off I chord




10 Maj aug 1 2 3 4 5 #5 6 7
f g a Bb c C# D E
b7 1 2 #9 11#11 513
Like playing mixolydian with an added #1 of I chord



11 African Amercian Blues 1 2 b334b55 6 b7
f g Ab A Bb B C D Eb
b7 1 b9 9 #9 3 11 5 b13
Like Min i chordscale (c d eb f g) from G chromatic back up to C

I find this confusing, needs clearer explanation. At any rate, how are these pitch collections any different from modes of Major, Melodic Minor and Diminished scales we already know?

[vintagelove]

I find this confusing, needs clearer explanation. At any rate, how are these pitch collections any different from modes of Major, Melodic Minor and Diminished scales we already know?

If it's confusing, please ask a specific question, explanations in boldface are about as clear as possibly could be (if someone has a sufficient enough base of knowledge that they should even be working on this) for the purpose of this cheat sheet.

As to your second question, some of these scales have other names, but, some folks may not know them at all, and some might not have known where to use them, this helps with that. Lastly even if you already know these scales, looking at them in a different way might make you think of something you've never done before. I had a breakthrough thought on a completely unrelated subject the day I really discovered this stuff. Never underestimate the power of getting the creative juices flowing!!!

[Robertkoa]

When I read the Title I thought LCC was
more of a Theory Book....but realized it wasn't and did not for me integrate, unify, simplify, enlighten etc.

I don't seem to use scales as much as most people ( I do use them kind of but they have wider interval shapes and Arps thrown in ) but I like Pentatonics especially with different endings .. and as I said I am working on Pentatonic Relationships because you can easily get from Inside ( ALL chord tones) to outside (NO chord Tones) and points in between with Pentatonics more quickly than you can with 7 Note Scales.

Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet - probably only 30 Pages ...lol.

[cosmic gumbo]

Now the good news....jazz theory is even simpler than LLC.....

[cosmic gumbo]

Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet

Keep digging and you'll find it's far from an original concept, and is incorporated by enough great players, but rarely as an end all. Check out some educational stuff by guitarist Vic Juris.

[vintagelove]

When I read the Title I thought LCC was
more of a Theory Book....but realized it wasn't and did not for me integrate, unify, simplify, enlighten etc.

I don't seem to use scales as much as most people ( I do use them kind of but they have wider interval shapes and Arps thrown in ) but I like Pentatonics especially with different endings .. and as I said I am working on Pentatonic Relationships because you can easily get from Inside ( ALL chord tones) to outside (NO chord Tones) and points in between with Pentatonics more quickly than you can with 7 Note Scales.

Surprised no one wrote the Pentatonic Book yet - probably only 30 Pages ...lol.

Why not turn these into pentatonic scales, with wide intervals and arpeggios?

Its just a few new colors to play with.


If you are not already, check out pentatonic substitutions. If you know what you're doing, and you be careful to avoid/resolve a note or two, you can practically get away with playing them anywhere.

[Robertkoa]

Yes. Vintage love- I get away with playing them a lot now..especially when I tack on
an arpeggiated Triad at the end which forces what I just played to be heard in the Key or Harmonic Region of the destination Triad.
A "Melodic Cadence"so you rip on a Major Pentatonic and end on the Relative Minor Triad - it will be heard as Minor...
But you can go to other Triads and cause the whole thing to be heard in another Key
( or Harmonic Region) just by the ending!

I play these all over and with interpolated
stuff in the middle to disguise them etc. but
I want to "catalog" them better.

I also suspect that they are far better than 7
Note Scales for quickly getting Inside or Outside of Keys -Chord Tones- and when you play three of them you are "enharmonic" with their Parent Mode and they are spread out better on the Guitar than 7 Note scales in many ways for playing parallel fourths simultaneously etc.

There IS no end all be all...but these seem the most logical step to to compliment 7 Note Scales.

Yes arpeggiating some of them is a good idea but I am interested in Arps that can be played over the existing Chord inside so if I use a ii Arpeggio over a I min7 have to use a b6 on the ii chord - I want my vertical Arps to be "Inside" so ...not sure how these
Lydian things would ' stack' up- I am all over the fretboard so I need " Inside " tones ...easy to get "out" but again I am doing some kind of Rhythmic Post Steely Dan R&B etc...outside has to be in context and resolved...quickly..lol.

Where is a "cheat sheet" of the shortcut Pentatonics Inside to Outside over each Chord Type? That would be interesting.

[vintagelove]

Yes. Vintage love- I get away with playing them a lot now..especially when I tack on
an arpeggiated Triad at the end which forces what I just played to be heard in the Key or Harmonic Region of the destination Triad.
A "Melodic Cadence"so you rip on a Major Pentatonic and end on the Relative Minor Triad - it will be heard as Minor.
But you can go to other Triads and cause the whole thing to be heard in another related Key within 2 sharps or flats away
( or Harmonic Region) just by the ending!

I play these all over and with interpolated
stuff in the middle to disguise them etc. but
I want to "catalog" them better.

I also suspect that they are far better than 7
Note Scales for quickly getting Inside or Outside of Keys -Chord Tones- and when you play three of them you are "enharmonic" with their Parent Mode and they are spread out better on the Guitar than 7 Note scales in many ways for playing parallel fourths simultaneously etc.

There IS no end all be all...but these seem the most logical step to to compliment 7 Note Scales.

Yes arpeggiating some of them is a good idea but I am interested in Arps that can be played over the existing Chord inside so if I use a ii Arpeggio over a I min7 have to use a b6 on the ii chord - I want my vertical Arps to be "Inside" so ...not sure how these
Lydian things would ' stack' up- I am all over the fretboard so I need " Inside " tones ...easy to get "out" but again I am doing some kind of Rhythmic Post Steely Dan R&B etc...outside has to be in context and resolved...quickly..lol.

Where is a "cheat sheet" of the shortcut Pentatonics Inside to Outside over each Chord Type? That would be interesting.

Honestly most Guitarists just think of a
7 note scale when you say a Cmajor Scale.
Saying that the C Major Penta F Major Penta and G Major Penta and their Relative Minors are all enharmonic subs or part of the C major Scale would light up the fretboard for a lot of Guitarists..I never heard it before...give me a Grammy now ...lol

I heard Michael Brecker using them to great effect once live....

I saw John Mclaughlin using them but not so great..great chops but typical Guitar Rock stuff...no Transposition or creative Resolution...but that was long ago.

I watched a Video recently and they 're talking about Modes and Scales and one guy mentioned the enharmonic nature of modes a bit but- when they improvised they were was using a typical bunched up close Interval Alphabetical Order scale...people will not pay to hear that IMO.
In my Book * " Why Scales Suck" I explain this more fully ...lol.

*Don't Worry - I didn't really write a book.

I think guitar players give pentatonics a bad name. The pentatonic scales are the chord tones. What better to play with??

i have a cheat sheet on pentatonic subs I can send you if you're interested, just pm me your email.

[Robertkoa]

Thanks very much I will do that .

I appreciate you Posting and answering my questions.

This Forum is a Great Resource - a lot of Guys who have really done their homework etc.

I don' t want anyone to mistake my attempts at Humor to mean I don't respect and appreciate the Brain Trust here.

I actual do a more' common ' simpler version of ' Heirarchy '
Convert to Parent Ionian ..

The Modes are 7 note scales - Pentas are 5

So Parent Major = I / IV/ V and their enharmonic minor pentas
I call this Modal = Enharmonic Pentatonic Conversion

Then Any Ionian Mode ( Major Scale ) plus the #IV Major Penta = the Chromatic Scale

Meaning #IV Penta is as" OUT " as you can get and working around the Circle of Fifths or Fourths you get the OTHER Pentas progressively more "Inside " until you are back to totally "inside " .

But it would "complexify " my realtime conceptual thing to start trying to grock 'lydian ' as the Parent Mode.

I use parent scales and Parent Keys , and ' Regions'
but I do not understand the term:


' Lydian Tonic '

C Lydian = G Ionian where's the Lydian Tonic ?
C right ?
Where is the Lydian Tonic on a Dom 7th Chord are we converting Mixolydian to Lydian Parent Scale ?

G7 = G mixolydian = C ionian = F lydian
So F is Lydian Tonic ? for G7 ?

This might mean that my conversion to Ionian and using Pentas is just a different , more transparent look at this...

[Moonray]

Pentatonics were covered by Ramon Ricker in his book Pentatonic Scales for Jazz Improvisations in 1975.
Still available on Amazon.

That was the first one I came across that covered the topic outside of the guitaristic blues thing...[which is great
in itself of course]

Ricker is a saxophonist and that immediately gives us a different slant at the many uses of the pentatonics
by players such as Woody Shaw, Wayne Shorter,Joe Henderson etc.

He has charts going from most inside to most outside scale to use over various chord qualities.

If you take one pentatonic and place it successively through the 12 "keys" of that scale you can pretty easily
figure out what intervals against any one chosen chord and then extrapolate that.
.....Easy enough to do for yourself, and you'd learn more into the bargain.

But the book is valuable.....has a few choice solos of the names mentioned above ....transcribed by Bill Dobbins.

...More recently Jerry Bergonzi has given his [prodigious] attention to the subject in his Inside Improvisation series
of books published by Advance ....the one for pentatonics is Vol 2 "Pentatonics".
Jerry's approach is deep, and if you want a couple of lessons by him to see online go to :

https://www.mymusicmasterclass.com/


Also recommend Tony Greaves' website [he's a guitar player...a good one ....jazz on a strat]
See Lessons 10-16 on pentatonic use, based on Bergonzi's book approach.

https://allegedartist.wordpress.com/...e-of-contents/

[Endorphins]

Gonna try to keep an eye on this thread, thanks!

[an_iron_panda]

Hello, thought I would share this and save everybody from trudging through the book (which is worthwhile imo).


So, in plain English.... LCC will give you tons of options, your ears and musicianship need to do the rest.

Essentially, there are 11 parent scales which get further "out" sounding as you go (iow they add more tensions). You need to learn how to find the parent lydian scale, once you do that, you can use any of the 11 scales beginning on the lydian tonic. We will only concern ourselves with thinking about the dom7 and its ii chord for now.

G7=F lydian ..... think about it....

So, essentially you're playing off the b7 of the dom. Below are my notes on playing off the dom7 (and the ii). Put on the ii V I(play lydian over I) jam track and start soaking up the new vocabulary. While the system can go deeper, this is a huge chunk of it.

i want to say huge thanks for explanation...makes me starting curious to learn it, i start to try those scales on Gdom7 on II V I and some scales really catchy, but some i still didnt get feels...

and i still confused a bit

on first i still confused about the position chord, based on the dom7 and ii chord,

so our root will start on F ?
F G A B C D E
i ii iii iv v vi vii

or its second chord of II V I, so it will be V(b7)

and

2) reread exactly what I wrote, all formula start on b7 of the dominant chord, and will work over both the ii and V.... The = is a convenient or traditional way to think of the scale.

and if the first state right so..the im confused about the mode...should it will be like this ?
F G A B C D E
Imaj7 IIdom IIImin7 IVdim Vmaj7 VIminor7 VIIminor7

the II is Gdom but the V is maj7

thanks for explanation...god bless you

[sgcim]

I just played with a bass player who went to the NEC of Music when Geo. Russell taught there.
He said the rumor going around there was that GR didn't even understand the LCC!

I read the GR bio, and was amazed to find that all the GR music that I loved had nothing to do with the LCC.

It turned out that all the GR music I couldn't stand WAS written using the LCC.

The sad thing was that GR disowned all that great music he wrote before the LCC, and forbade public performance of it.