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I think JohnW400 hit the nail on the head..there is theory and then there is applied theory...you can play any note on a chord and probably explain it "in theory"...doesn't make it musical.
I have played bass for +30 years with tons of different guitarists and can tell you that it was a lot easier to communicate with the one's that knew their theory.....in the end it always seems to come down to the guys that didn't know the theory behind the progressions knew one or two styles well...maybe even very well, but add a little complexity to the music and it was a struggle.
Not saying theory is the answer or will give you all the answers, but if you want to play jazz I think you need at least a good fundimental knowledge
of it to give you a roadmap of saying something musical...
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12-21-2009 11:07 PM
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My quote should have been those not well versed in theory(my bad).
Originally Posted by TieDyedDevil
One out of every ten thousand
people has it anyway.Last edited by Bigmagic; 12-22-2009 at 12:37 AM.
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I have a hard time believing that there are those who really cherish music and the instrument they play but don't actually study music. There are three possibilities here, so far as I can tell. The first is that they just don't feel like learning about music; the second is that they live in circumstances where they don't have the means to access such knowledge (due to lack of money, etc); and the third is that they deliberately refuse because it takes away from the "feeling."
I believe the first possibility is highly unlikely if the person truly appreciates music and the instrument they play. It's human nature for us to not only work on understanding things that we're interested in, but quite often we obsess about such things, and I believe it can't be helped. The second possibility is probably not all that rare, but it's certainly rare (if it exists at all) among those who are currently working musicians, since the latter implies that they're making money with music, and knowledge is cheap in our culture.
So basically we're looking at the third possibility as the only real thing keeping some real guitarists from learning theory. But would these guys that refuse the knowledge be where they were if it wasn't for the continual pentatonic scale mashing? At some point they learned that from someone, and it took them a long way in their playing. In effect, they're entirely restricted by their refusal to learn theory because theory is not about limiting possibilities, but expanding them.
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The thing is, no one executes heart surgery, or gets that gig, by ear alone. Yet, no one operates without a feel for it either. Originally Posted by \m/ Mad Metal Mage \m/
-TD
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This is a good statement because its my personal experience.. there were just some things my ear couldnt process my mind kept wanting to take over.. Originally Posted by Jackson C
Then i learned theory and the idea behind it.. Jazz theory is a lot more complicated its funny how we use a lot of modes when there were used as ancient gregorian chants.. I feel like you can hear a lot of the greats play ex. Wes Montgomery a lot of his chords consist of not chords at all they are octave jumps, Now in theory this is considered a bad move because it doesnt sound good to the ear.!!!! BUTTTT! Wes makes it sound beautiful not to mention if theory is based on ear it must be based on genres and individuals... Like Holdsworth Incredible player but I wont listen to anything but the solos...
Back to the first statement I went through this I would hear songs and love the intro and expect to hear heavenly jazz progressions but then you hear mediocrity... But if you have a basic grasp of theory youve got much more of an arsenal of tricks in your bag.. Look at Frank Gambale the man learned his theory constructed chords as shapes on his guitar, if a chord didnt have a sweep pattern he moved it learning two or three chords for every chords. Now the guy just sweeps shapes whenever he feels like it.. thats not ear its theory...
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To be completely Originally Posted by \m/ Mad Metal Mage \m/
self taught you would have to have been born on a desert island and have
had no musical contact at all. I think most of us have read more than one
guitar tuitorial [ I think I've read them all] So these guys who claim
they're completely self taught must be cave dwellers.
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Those who play by ear are talented enough to learn almost anything and their technique is sometimes unorthodox, but very masterful. Theory with this kind of talent gives direction to what has already been disciplined, and opens you up to a whole new universe. I know because I do this. It has helped me as a session musician and as a band member regardless of the music genre.
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This might answer your question, coming from a pro player and teacher, Jimmy Bruno.....straight from Jimmy Bruno's site:
What was your evolution as a player?
Posted by jimmy2, Nov 22,2007 @ 4:15 AM
I started playing by ear from my father. My parents were musicians. Then I got hooked on theory and soon realized that I could hear it faster than I could think about it. Then the hearing turned into a visual. I found when I was younger when I was playing with experienced musicians that none of them used any scale mode thinking at all. But they all knew about it and could explain things they played using theory. But they couldn't make music using theory. I think the theory is an afterthought. I couldn't make music using it. I could only do it by using my ear. I soon stopped playing from that theory place
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My evolution as a player was I had a personal interest in guitar at age 12. I learned to finger clean notes first. Afterward I began to learn basic chords. From basic chord structures I began to develop melodies based on what to chords sounded like. As I grew, so did my chord vocabulary and my melodies and solos evolved. I only used a simple Mel Bay chord book and a lot of imaginattion, as well as the fact that I listen to other musicians recorded and live. I took a lot of mental notes as I watched and listened to them play and practiced for HOURS with no formal training or mentering. My soloing got better once I joined my first live band. I also played the bass for my church, which opened my imagination even more; I eventually became the church organist strictly by ear, which opened me up even more to the guitar world. I began recording professionally and then privately (kind of backwards), but the key is I KEPT GROWING AS A MUSICIAN. I could probably write a book about my evolution as a guitar player, but I never took formal lessons and knew I needed theory to get better, so I began to buy guitar instruction books and took a basic music theory course in college as a filler. I love jazz chord structures and a lot of movement and mainly learned most of it on my own by ear and my imagination. I create music partly from my mind and heart (most important) and from theory. The combination of the two (mostly use what's inside) form great musical ideas.
I hope this helps.
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Great post. I started as a blues and rhythm & blues player in Atlanta, GA learning from the brothers in 1955. They taught me blues triads as form and then I learned licks from watching, listening and experimenting.
As I continued to play, hanging out with guitar, horn and keyboard players, I began to learn ballads, and from that I had to learn some theory, i.e what chords work in each key, and then where are the notes that fit those chords?
Long story short, if I couldn't hear the tunes, and couldn't figure out where to play what I heard, it was over. So, I learned the chords, leads, and how to blend rhythmically with the other instruments, and in that process I absorbed theory sub consciously, as I could transpose, modulate, and blend in.
I still can't read notes, but know where the chords are, which chords fit where (5ths, 6ths, 7ths, 8ths 13ths, augmented, diminished, etc., when to change, and which notes fit over those chords and where the notes are in 3 octaves..
Of course I wish I was schooled, but since I never had the chance, I'm just happy I can play what I can. Music isn't an ego thing in the sense that it just feels good to be able to play, and the drive to want to play is inherent in wanting to feel good.
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This whole theory versus ear thing is really starting to blur for me now and I'm moving into the Jimmy Bruno camp now as Heavy Blues alluded to I think.
For instance, yesterday morning I was doing my typcial weekend ritual - up early, drinking coffee, watching SpongeBob Squarepants, and playing the guitar. I was just noodling around and heard a snippet of the melody for "Love Me Tender" under my fingers. So I picked out the entire melody, then in about an hour I had arranged a chord melody of it without any reference to sheet music or a chord chart, etc.
Did I do that with theory? Or was that by ear? When I analyze it, I see I've used major, minor, and diminished type chords. I say I did it by ear and some trial and error for certain voicings to get the sound I wanted. No theory whatsoever was employed.
But, I couldn't have done that even a year ago. I have always had a good sense of relative pitch and can find a melody by ear, but harmonizing it properly was a challenge. Now, I can harmonize a strong melody without too much trouble. But, can I do that because I learned theory, or because I have just been playing so much chord melody stuff since I started playing jazz a couple of years ago.
Honestly, I can't say. My gut tells me it's just time on the instrument that has developed my ear-finger-brain connection now. Theory is just a way to explain it so I could write it down if I wanted.Last edited by Goofsus4; 01-04-2010 at 04:36 PM.
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Goofsus4:
Seems that was an ear thing. I just started analyzing a 24 fret guitar, realizing that there are 3 more high register frets than my Jazzmaster, and 2 more than my Gibson, and easier access. I realized that when playing blues I could play all the way up in in key of F#, i.e. I could play notes over the C# chord on first 3 strings in the 22-24th frets. On a Fender I have to stop at Eb and on Gibson in E to do that, and in F-A I have to go back down the neck to get those notes. (I don't actually know the names of the notes unless I count them up from 12th fret, and if I did know them it wouldn't help as I can't read.
So I actually play everything by position, knowing where all the chords are, and where the notes are that fit those chords, and somehow subconsciously can count frets up or down when transposing to a different key. Like in "The Way We Were", If I'm playing it in C and then going to Em and then Dm, they are three frets, 2 in a row and space then 3, so if I play it in A I go to C#m and Bm, same positions, no theory involved. I can also get chords and progressions from fake books, and then improvise. Melodies I have to pick out by ear.
And, all blues leads can be improvised as to order, bends, hammer ons, pull offs, etc. as long as they don't deviate from major/minor pentatonic and blues scales and essential triads. So I guess the theory is knowing triads/scales.
I think theory is when one composes a progressive tune he knows what is harmonic as opposed to atonal through intellectual knowledge, i.e. which chords fit in progression, and which bass and treble notes will make a harmonic melody line within those chords in any number of scales, and how to set the meter to fit, a much greater expanded knowledge than triads/scales for blues. That knowledge would be theoretical I think IMHO.
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Jazz does have a history and theory is one way to become aware of the language. It will not make you a good soloist, but at least you will be aware of whats implied, its hard to play outside if you don't know what's inside. All approaches work...depending on what you define as working. There are very physical properties in Jazz and I personally enjoy being aware of them, even when I don't follow the typ. road map. When you don't know all the letters of the language, its difficult to spell whats implied, or you may not even be aware of what's implied. That's not bad or wrong etc... It all seems to come down to what you want from Jazz. Money, Enjoyment, a way to socialize, help evolve the field of jazz etc... Being a good soloist, with or with out theory always requires putting in the time. Enjoy it Reg
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That is right. I see no difference in things parallel in life. I mean, why go to school, if you can just watch and listen to TV and what other people talk about, and do? What many of the pro players, who do frown upon scales and modes, *really* imply is that you cannot learn to play jazz from that stuff. You learn jazz from listening ( and copping from) to the jazz greats; as it is a language, as well as an art form. You learn the peripheral materials utilizing theory ( theory may enhance your jazz literature and your own creative ideas) as you would throughout any other idiom. Listen to Charlie Parker and also study theory. What is wrong with that? Originally Posted by Reg
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Whats a good guitar player... very personal etc. If you want to call yourself or someone else a good guitar player I think you need more than your personal opinion. There are standards which can be measured; sight reading, soloing, comping etc... but you can only measure what you can talk about, hopefully you see where I'm going. I'm a well educated musician, UC Berkeley, grad. of Berklee Boston and UCLA and worked in LA writing music for films and TV in the late 70s and 80s. Which means very little, except I have put my time in. You need to figure out why you play (I play because I love it, I enjoy being part of the Clan etc..) If you want to be called a good guitar player or want to ask the question you need to understand the language, and theory is part of the language. Reg
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Theory etc...
Whats a good guitar player... very personal etc. If you want to call yourself or someone else a good guitar player I think you need more than your personal opinion. There are standards which can be measured; sight reading, soloing, comping etc... but you can only measure what you can talk about, hopefully you see where I'm going. I'm a well educated musician, UC Berkeley, grad. of Berklee Boston and UCLA and worked in LA writing music for films and TV in the late 70s and 80s. Which means very little, except I have put my time in. You need to figure out why you play (I play because I love it, I enjoy being part of the Clan etc..) If you want to be called a good guitar player or want to ask the question you need to understand the language, and theory is part of the language. Reg
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Hi sorry I have been away for a while. I just finished my jazz degree. Interestng stuff to read from everyone's comments--did not expect my inquiry to "blow up." Anyway, not sure if I said this before but one of my teachers said, "You can't learn how to play jazz from a book." I remember. He was laughing when he said that. I think what he was getting at was that you can't just rely on one thing to make it happen. For me, learning how to play jazz was like a growing process. You must play it, listen to it, read about it, study it, and all of that must be driven by passion to do it...at least for me it was and still is. And you can't just stop--the learning continues as does the experience and the music...but what do I know? I was born in the 80s. :P
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Yes. Originally Posted by \m/ Mad Metal Mage \m/
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How can it possibly hurt to understand music theory? I don't get that.
And although it's not theory, a good reader who is a good player will be more employable than an ear player who is a good player.
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This thread has been going on for a long time and to be honest I've read none of it. The answer seems pretty simple though. I know somebody's probably said it already, but the way I see it is this: you don't need to know music theory to be a good guitar player. You need to know music theory to be a good musician. Period.
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01-11-2010, 04:36 PM #121Stringbean Guest
The only issue I have with modern, music theory is it's accessibility. Long before I was effectively out of music's cradle, theory has taken me in way over my head.
All those published, beautiful theories. Detailed analysis, of all my favorite sounds, only a page turn away. Slipped me deep into the subs and changes, scale phrigs and chromas, turnarounds and bebops. When, really all I wanted was, to conjure up a cadence, musically.
Can music theory let the deaf hear?
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I totally suck at theory, there’s a part of me that regrets it and another one that’s resisting hard to fix the problem; and the latter has always won so far. Why? Because I don’t have a sense that knowing more theory will improve my playing tremendously, while I’m pretty sure that more technique would.
On the other hand, nobody can play solidly without a solid theoretical baggage, even though it’s not an academically formulated knowledge, it’s a form of internalized theory that allows the performer to get the best usage of his/her intuition to play good, creative stuff on the fly.
I think theory tells us what NOT to play but won’t tell what's best to play.
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Interesting debate. My experience has been that I was not the most natural player at the beginning of learning jazz. That was my last year in high school but I had been playing folk songs, early 70's pop/rock and classical guitar prior to that (1977).
For me, learning theory was always a revelation because it enable me to play the jazz standards in the Real Book, and later on, to transcribe correct versions of these same standards from the original recordings. I would fix my Real Books after that. Also, after learning jazz theory (and classical theory), I was able to understand what the great jazz horn players were playing in their improvisations. Miles, Coltrane, Sonny Rollins, Clifford Brown, etc. etc.
The other thing, for me, is that I was always able to sort of "turn off" the theory when I was playing a gig or any other type of performance. I always thought that theoretical study was for when you were at home practicing or studying some aspect of the music. Chords, modes, scales, learning a famous solo, etc. Once I was playing, I would make a balance between energy playing and, if I got in a tight spot, use theory to get out of it.
It always took time, for me anyway, for something I had learned through theory to come out naturally in my playing. Sometimes it was frustrating how long it took, but it would always happen eventually. Over the years this has been the pattern for me. I can't speak for anyone else, but I learned about playing from a place of spiritual energy from Reggie Workman. He plays from that space but he also would encourage all students to learn whatever they can to help them get to that place.
I always enjoyed theory, but I do understand the many people that do not enjoy it or hate it. And for blues, rock, pop, etc. it may not be necessary. However, I have played with some excellent rock/pop musicians and they could read music and knew what they were doing.
As usual, this is one of those debates that can go on forever. All I can do is tell you what worked for me.
Hope my 2 cents helps.Last edited by Bloomworks; 02-16-2010 at 06:40 AM.
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heres my take on it at this point in time...
if im writing a solo or another part to a song, i spend half the time on the guitar and half the time without the guitar. Without the guitar, im singing melodies by ear without thinking (theory) about anything and therefore its a seamless connection. With the guitar, I can use theory to play something that I'm not hearing in my head or have never heard. Both are valid approaches. When improvising, I'll generally don't look at the fretboard and try play whats in my head rather than thinking about it and being boxed into common positions and cliches. But knowing theory can get stuff out of my head (without having a great ear) what im hearing because i can relate the theory patterns to the sound. People who venture on without theory will probably come up with the same frameworks that people with theory use but they will be free of thinking and probably have a better ear coz they would have been tranposing heaps of stuff and actually listening more deeply. They still hear the colours they just dont know what to call them or have other names for them.
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It's not one or the other... you need both. Your ears are only as good as what they can hear and if you can't hear the theory what good is it. And learn to read well... Good musicians have great ears, understand what there playing and can read what's put in front of them with out memorizing it...Reg
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