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Hi everyone,
I've been playing for 45+ years and studied with Rodney Jones, Ted Dunbar and Rick Stone. That doesn't mean I'm a good guitarist! Just that I have a pretty good understanding of the basics.
Rick Stone mentioned Barry's system and he has some pdfs online that are very good introductions. Roni Ben-Hur also has some good info online. (I haven't checked out his Mike's Master Class yet).
This post is not about the first two scales (Maj. 6th diminished and Min. 6th diminished).
I've been working through Alan Kingstone's GREAT book (The Barry Harris Harmonic Method for Guitar) for the past couple years. It's a very good introduction to the Major and Minor 6th diminished scales, especially with tips like using the 6th off the 5th and borrowing notes. I'm very familiar with those first two scales.
BUT...the Dominant 7th diminished and Dominant 7th b5 diminished scales are given scant attention. Just a few pages on how to spell them and some chord charts. Having spent this much time sorting through the Maj and Min 6th dim scales and still feeling like they take a back seat to what I already know, I am hesitant to work out every permutation of these last two scales. I've done what seemed obvious to me which is to borrow notes and see what other chords appear but it doesn't seem to be that big of a payoff. I don't think Alan used them much if at all in his version of "Like Someone in Love".
What am I missing? Does anyone know how useful these scales are? Has anyone found a book/video that shows how to use these scales in depth? I wish Alan would write another book dealing with these scales!
Thank you very much!
Larry
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12-10-2014 02:08 PM
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Alan is around here and posts from time to time when Barry Harris threads appear so maybe he'll pop in and comment.
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i asked Alan this exact question a week or two ago, and this was his reponse:
"I've heard him talk of both but he seems to favour 7b5o as it's comprised of 4 notes of the root and 4 notes of it's tri-tone.
The application is dominant and he say's it's up to us to figure out how to use it. I've not explored it much.
Barry reiterated last week that guitarists should be showing the pianists things.
Let's do it!"
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using the 6th off the fifth...
is that playing e.g. d maj 6 (etc.) instead of g maj 6 (in g)?
i've always kind of left that one in the background and concentrated (a lot) on the maj and min 6th dim scales and their various applications
and i've largely ignored the two dominant chord scales too - after spending a lot of time with the barry harris stuff
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How do you use them? For comping, particularly a very slow harmonic rhythm ( I.e., where the chords don't change that often) where are you can go from one inversion to the other via the diminished chords, or add borrowed notes from the dominants ---and demonstrate movement and diverse voicings where before you had the same old same old. Particularly if you know which chordd you can sub for.
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Larry
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I guess my question goes more to why, when the first 2 scales (Maj and Min 6th dim.) open up many possibilities for movement, etc, do the last 2 scales just seem to lay there like standard inversions connected by diminished chords?
The Barry Harry system is tantalizing in that it seems to offer a "theory of everything". But I'm stuck!
Larry
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Originally Posted by podink
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If you don't mind an observation from someone new to the whole thing - I don't have the actual answer but I would observe that on page 19 it says that for dominant chords you can play the m6 diminished on the 5th of the dominant root. So play Gmdim6 for a C7. The C7 diminished chord scale is the same thing only using the root instead of the 9th of C.
I don't know if that helps with your question since I am not that far along studying this method. Just an observation. Maybe it's just not that useful because people like 9th chords with no roots rather than 7ths with roots. It may be that it's just not that useful. But, again - take it with grains (many) of salt coming from me.
Cheers.
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If you combine all the "6th on the 5th" and "brother and sister" concepts with the vanilla dom7 and dom7b5 scales, you have an amazing pallete of harmonic color to use in dominant contexts.
Remember that the dominants that share the diminished chord are subs for eachother!
K
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Originally Posted by ColinO
G A Bb C D Eb E F#
It is used for an unaltered dominant sound. Gm6/dim on C7
For altered dominant you could use Dbm6/dim on C7
Db Eb Fb (E) Gb Ab A Bb C which is basically Db melodic minor with a passing tone between 5th and 6th.
I haven't spent much with the other 2...
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Originally Posted by docbop
Larry
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
What I'm having trouble with right now is getting more out of the Dominant 7th Diminished and the Dominant 7th b5 Diminished scales besides just the 4 inversions interspersed with diminished chords.
Ideas like "6th on the 5th", "brother and sisters", and borrowing notes are just some of the things that made the Maj. and Min. 6th diminished scales so great. I was hoping that I would start to see the last two scales open up in a similar way.
Larry
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Originally Posted by podink
K
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Found it! Page 14. If you apply the basic idea explained here to the dom7 and dom7b5 dim chord scales, you have a bunch of options to use over dominant contexts. Does that sound more like what your looking for?
K
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
I'm at work and my book is at home. I've been through the whole book at least twice and maybe didn't think about applying the options on page 14 to the dom7 and dom7b5 scales. I'm sure that whatever those page 14 options are, I DID apply them to the Maj and Min 6th dim scales.
I tried to work through the whole book step-by-step as if Alan was giving me guitar lessons. I've missed stuff right in front of my face before!
Thanks,
Larry
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Originally Posted by nosoyninja
You might be onto something. I'll keep trying until I start drooling...
Larry
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Hey folks: I've been laid up though I fell asleep last night thinking about how to use these. I admit I've not spent a lot of time with them but I'm intrigued.
Application of Sisters & Brothers ("Who do you play with first?" says Barry) is on page 39.
We can substitute the Minor Sixth Diminished on the 5th or b2nd (with overhead bracket in examples) for the Seventh Diminished or Seventh Flat Five Diminished.
The crucial thing is: MAKE IT WORK RHYTHMICALLY!
Use the suggested rhythms on page 39 for both bars. Unlike the written examples we want to change from the Sixth (as m7) to the Seventh Flat Five as the related Diminished are different.
Putting the triplet in will make it work.
I'm really thrilled my book is useful to you folks and helping you improvise while chording.
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Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
If we are playing | Am7 | D7 | GMaj7 | , do you mean: | CM6 | Dom 7th dim or Dom 7b5 dim | GM6 |?
Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
Your suggested rhythms are 4 quarters for the 1st bar then a 1/2note triplet with 2 quarters in the 2nd bar (1st variation). I just want to make sure I understand what you mean when you stress both bars.
I confused about how to use the Dom 7 dim and Dom 7b5 dim in the second bar. The obvious choices to me are to play either chord scale on the root or Tritone. Is that correct or am I missing something?
Thanks!
Larry
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Originally Posted by podink
…...Last edited by A. Kingstone; 12-12-2014 at 10:19 PM.
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I really think page 39 is the key here as per Alan's recomendation.
To me the key issue is you asked if Cmaj6 should be a sub for Am7. I'm just trying to help you here, not criticize. To me that is one of the biggest concepts of the book:
Cmaj6 IS Am7
These aren't substitutions, there harmony from a different perspective.
One primary for me in my training using Alan's book was understanding that I was not learning 'substitutions' but that I was learning an entirely new way of looking at chord changes. When I see your example, I'm immediatley thinking CM6 to G.
On page 18 Alan gives an anecdote about Monk's understanding of m7b5 being a m6 with a 6 in the base. A perfect example of how to use this book as a 'non-standard' way to understand changes.
Again, you might already realize this and the Am7 could have been a fluke. Just trying offer some assistance in answering your question.
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After playing around with it for a few minutes this morning here are some chords that can be played by borrowing 1,2 or 3 notes from either the C7b5 or it's related dim....somewhat random
C7#5(b13)
C9b13
Bbaug/E
E7
Bmin6
Bb7
Fmin6
FmMaj7
D9#11
Ab13
Gb13
E/F
Gbb13
etc....
To my ears it's sounds exactly what the name implies, C7b5 dim....a kind of hybrid Whole Tone Diminshed
C D E F Gb Ab Bb BLast edited by djangoles; 12-13-2014 at 10:42 AM.
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Originally Posted by djangoles
Larry
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I'm having lots of fun experimenting with the Dominant 7 dim scales but I have one question which is unrelated. Sorry for hijacking the thread.
For this progression
| Am7 | D7 | G |
We can use CM6 over the Am7 chord right? But doesn't that produce an Aeolian minor 7th with a flat 6th? What if I really want a Dorian ii chord?
I know a Dorian Am7 with natural 6th is hidden in the GM6 dim scale but it requires some work to extract it (borrowing notes, etc). I'm spoiled by the simplicity of running the CM6 dim off the minor third of Am7 and I'm trying to figure out an elegant way to do the same thing over a dorian vamp using Barry's system.
Of course I use every trick I know when actually playing so it's not like I'm thinking I must use Barry's system exclusively! I just want to wring everything I can out of it.
Larry
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Barry's harmonic and soloing theories are separate. Barry's soloing method is mainly about Dominant 7th scales.
For instance:
Am7 / D7
Barry would say D7 scale into Ab7 scale. The TWO chord is built on the 5th degree of the Dominant scale. There is no need to play it.
For further study in this direction I again suggest Howard Rees excellent workshop videos with Barry.
RIP Nick Gravenites
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