why are so many jazz songs in "flat" keys?

**bobsguitars09** · 10-25-2014, 01:20 AM

why are so many jazz songs in "flat" keys? At least when I look in the realbook.

**docbop** · 10-25-2014, 01:38 AM

Because are horns transposition instruments in flat keys Bb or Eb.

**henryrobinett** · 10-25-2014, 01:44 AM

Bingo. Horn players. That started the tradition. F, Bb, Eb, Ab. Those are the keys. So much so the "guitar keys" are awkward for me now.

**bobsguitars09** · 10-25-2014, 02:03 AM

That makes sense!

**Flyin' Brian** · 10-25-2014, 03:57 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

Bingo. Horn players. That started the tradition. F, Bb, Eb, Ab. Those are the keys. So much so the "guitar keys" are awkward for me now.

Same here. I actually dislike playing in "guitar keys". Even when guitar guys call a simple blues in A, I'd much rather play it in Ab or Bb. But then they often still only play I-IV-Vs.

**Broyale** · 10-25-2014, 09:01 AM

How did the whole "guitar keys" thing come about? I never understood that. All keys should be accessible to guitarists, why the need for any distinction? Same with horn players, who decided that horns should be in flat keys?

**M-ster** · 10-25-2014, 09:26 AM

Originally Posted by Flyin' Brian

... Even when guitar guys call a simple blues in A, I'd much rather play it in Ab or Bb ...

Depending on how one reads that ... it could be a recipe for some "out" sounds!

**targuit** · 10-25-2014, 09:41 AM

Some keys just play better with certain song arrangements. As a vocalist, there seems to be something elusively "lifting" about singing in flat keys. It is not something I can explain really, but it feels real.

Last night I was playing Body and Soul in a variety of keys and the one I liked best is in Db. And Tenderly in Eb. Apart from vocal range, who knows why.

Jay

**matt.guitarteacher** · 10-25-2014, 09:48 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

How did the whole "guitar keys" thing come about? I never understood that. All keys should be accessible to guitarists, why the need for any distinction? Same with horn players, who decided that horns should be in flat keys?

Open strings on the guitar aren't flat key notes. In the keys of E, A, D, G and C (and their relative minors ) you've got many more open string notes and open chords than in flat keys. Traditional guitar music, even classical, is centered around keys which utilize open strings more.

By the way, pianists prefer flat keys as well.

**gtrplrfla** · 10-25-2014, 10:43 AM

The prevalence of flat keys can be traced back to the great classical composers, many of whom created their marvelous works on harpsichord, clavier and piano - the latter favoured flats with the exception of "C". If one advances to the time of the great American popular music composers, Gershwin, Porter, Mercer, Berlin, Kern and many more, invariably, you'll discover an exposure to classical music in their youth and it's easy to see why they would utilize similar keys for their compositions. Let's not forget that the guitar, with scant exception, was relegated to a rhythm role until Eddie Lang, Django and a few others brought it into a more leading role. The advent of amplification accelerated the guitar's prominence and most of its practitioners weren't stymied by playing in flat keys.

On a personal note (excuse the pun !), during my early inroads with chord melody, I would transpose to more "guitar friendly" keys, A flat to A. E flat to D, e.g., but eventually decided to face the difficult keys head on and once the first tune, "A Nightingale Sang In Berkeley Square" was perfected in E flat, all previous trepidation vanished ! So, for the new chord melody aspirants, dive in - the water's fine ! An unexpected bonus accompanies flat key playing in that all one's open key clichés can be shelved for alternatives !

**MarkRhodes** · 10-25-2014, 11:46 AM

Originally Posted by Broyale

How did the whole "guitar keys" thing come about? I never understood that. All keys should be accessible to guitarists, why the need for any distinction? Same with horn players, who decided that horns should be in flat keys?

I heard that Bb (for guitar players) is C for some horn players. Someone else here would know more about that.

But any guitar style that likes open strings---folk, country, bluegrass, some rock---is going to favor keys that allow them. (No open strings in Bb, but when you play in G, well, you've got open strings for the root, third, and fifth, ninth, and sixth: can't ask for much more than that! In E and A you get open strings for the bass notes with can ring out real nice. None of that in Bb or Ab!)

I'm used to playing in flat keys now but still play things in G (----note how many jazz guitar players have a 'blues in G' but not nearly so many horn players do!), E and A. I play "Nobody Knows You When You're Down and Out" in C and "It Had To Be You" in G.

**Flyin' Brian** · 10-25-2014, 12:19 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I heard that Bb (for guitar players) is C for some horn players. Someone else here would know more about that.

This is true. For some. For others it's Eb or F or A and I think that there are others.

There's an excellent explanation here:

Transposing instrument - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**docbop** · 10-25-2014, 12:25 PM

I remember when first getting serious about guitar and reading I was reading all this guitar stuff and it was mainly sharp keys and getting comfortable with that. Then got to Jazz school and suddenly seeing flat keys all the time and how awkward it was. Now flat keys are like home and its sharp keys that I have to thump myself in the head F C G D A....

**docbop** · 10-25-2014, 12:28 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

I heard that Bb (for guitar players) is C for some horn players. Someone else here would know more about that.

That's why when around bands with horns you'll start hearing them say "Concert C" or some other concert note. They are saying to the transposition instruments to play the transposed note so your C and there will be the same.

**kmaaj** · 10-25-2014, 01:13 PM

In standard tuning, it's quite simply idiomatic to the guitar. It's becoming less of an issue in popular music, with nearly everyone either dropping their tuning a half step and/or the constant use of capos, more and more stuff is sounding in flat keys though the guitars are playing in guitar friendly keys. My Strat stays a half step down, and I've thought about trying some jazz standards in this tuning to see how it goes. I've noticed that Ted Greene videos sound a half step down.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 10-25-2014, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by Broyale

How did the whole "guitar keys" thing come about? I never understood that. All keys should be accessible to guitarists, why the need for any distinction?

Play an open E chord.

**tacofarm** · 10-25-2014, 01:32 PM

Originally Posted by MarkRhodes

But any guitar style that likes open strings---folk, country, bluegrass, some rock---is going to favor keys that allow them. (No open strings in Bb, but when you play in G, well, you've got open strings for the root, third, and fifth, ninth, and sixth: can't ask for much more than that! In E and A you get open strings for the bass notes with can ring out real nice. None of that in Bb or Ab!)

Bb isn't the best example as you get some nice open strings with it: 3, 6, b5, b9.

**fumblefingers** · 10-25-2014, 02:22 PM

Horns? Or wood winds? Thought trumpet was in C? The other jazz "horn" being sax...

oops my my memory was faulty.

trumpet and sax then.

**Broyale** · 10-25-2014, 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Play an open E chord.

And?...

**henryrobinett** · 10-25-2014, 03:39 PM

Lol

**setemupjoe** · 10-25-2014, 03:57 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

Horns? Or wood winds? Thought trumpet was in C? The other jazz "horn" being sax...

oops my my memory was faulty.

trumpet and sax then.

Trumpet is a Bb instrument. It reads up a whole tone. That means if they see a C the note that is produced is a Bb below the C.
Soprano and Tenor saxes are also Bb although tenor plays up a ninth instead of a whole tone.
Alto and baritone sax are Eb instruments. Alto plays a 6th up and Bari is an octave and a 6th.
It's easier to finger flat keys on these instruments just the way we find it easier to play sharp keys because of open string voicings. You will learn this if you call a blues in B on stage with horns. Much bitching and name calling will ensue.